Pro and Con 795

Posted 8-21-01

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Re: collapsed their own mosque?
Wakf digging may have damaged southern wall of Temple Mount
By Etgar Lefkovits
JERUSALEM (August 17) - The Antiquities Authority has conducted a series of tests on the southern wall of the Temple Mount after sections of the exterior wall were found to be in danger of possible collapse, possibly due to Wakf construction work over past years at Solomon's Stables just above the site.

The authority conducted the tests over the last few months after sections of the southern wall surrounding the Temple Mount could clearly be seen protruding.

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Just one tiny earth tremor in the right place could ignite the Middle East! Agape
Yahoo News 8-20-01 - Jerusalem Retaining Wall May Fall
JERUSALEM (AP) - Part of the retaining wall of Jerusalem's most hotly contested holy site is in danger of collapse, with a large bulge in a stone wall near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, archaeologists say.

The Israelis and Palestinians blame each other for the ominous 35-foot-wide bulge in the wall holding up the southern end of the Al Aqsa Mosque compound, built on the site of the biblical Jewish Temples. Despite warnings the wall could cave in, the fingerpointing is holding up repairs.

Even a small change at the site could be explosive, much less a large-scale collapse....

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Retaining wall at disputed Jerusalem holy site in danger of collapse
...The retaining wall was built around the 8th century on top of King Herod's wall from the era of the Second Jewish Temple some 2,000 years ago. It forms the southern boundary of Haram as-Sharif, or Noble Sanctuary, from where Muslims believe the prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven.

Just around the corner is the Western Wall, another retaining wall of the Solomonic-Herodian compound, the holiest place where Jews are allowed to pray....

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New Asteroid Discovered - Possible Collision Path With Earth
From Jack Sarfatti 8-19-1

...The first possible impact date calculated and the one with the highest probability of occurring is set for June 17, 2005....

If 2001PM9 impacts the Earth...
1. It will be the kind of impact event that only happens once every 25,000 to 500,000 years.
2. It will impact with a force of somewhere between 100,000 to 800,000 Megatons
3. It will be somewhere between a "Large Sub-Global Event" to a "Nominal Global Effect Threshold" Event.
4. It is estimated that an impact of this order would result in the loss of anywhere between 500,000 and 1.5 Billion lives (depending on exactly where it hit)....

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From: South Africa
Thanx for the quick response. Reading your answer to my query is akin to watching somebody do a job that they are very good at... they make it look so easy. Eze 39 now makes sense, thanx once again. Agape

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What are your thoughts on Jim's Bramlett's e-mail/comment at the end of the latest Pro-Con 794?

If the shifting within the Gregorian calender is true, is it a correct assumption that this is moot with respect to Bible prophecy in that the Jewish calender is being used as the context for watching/predictions? -

My reply

Gen. 1:14 says, "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." The adjustments of the calendars have all been to keep them on the mark set by the Sun and Moon. I am sure that the Lord has coordinated the calendars to suit himself here at the end of the age. To me, the fact that the Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993 and ratified in Israel 3 days later on Tishri 1, 5754 demonstrates his perfect timing. Adding the 7 good years and the 7 bad years brings us to Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. This confirmation can be seen by watchers. THE Tribulation/70th week of Daniel hasn't begun because of the Great Tribulation's shortening (Mt. 24:21,22), but tribulations have been happening just about daily in Israel ever since 5761 began last fall. We are in the ballpark.

The Sun-Moon-Earth clock was set by God, and he can reset it. He proved that he has complete control in Joshua's Long Day and when the Sun went back on the sun dial. Isa. 38:8 says, "Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." One day is not much to lose in about 6040 years.

The name of the Lord from the Greek is Jesus. From the Hebrew, it is Joshua. Joshua's Long Day in the past was a shadow of Jesus/Joshua's Long Day in the near future. The first day of the millennial Day of the Lord will be Jesus' Long Day. It will surpass Joshua's Long Day and be like no other day--ever. There "shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Dan. 12:1). The globe will be turned upside down by the asteroid impacts. Isa. 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." Even then, the clockmaker will reset the clock correctly. He has complete control, as he has already demonstrated.

Joshua 10:10-14 is the prototype of Jesus' Long Day, when the Lord will fight for Israel. It says, "the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah. And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that THE LORD CAST DOWN GREAT STONES FROM HEAVEN UPON THEM unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for THE LORD FOUGHT FOR ISRAEL." Agape

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Re: Gog + Magog
Your work is so wonderful. You bless so many people that you do not even know about. Can't wait to meet you and Ed soon in heaven!

I understand all your interpretations and agree with them, there is just one thing that keeps bothering me; the Jews will bury the bodies for seven months after the Gog Magog war, which you have indicated to probably be seven months prior to the Second Advent and Armageddon. Eze 39:9 indicates that the Jews will use the discarded weapons of the Gog Magog for fuel for seven years. This sounds suspiciously like the seven year tribulation period. Or is it just coincidence ??

Praying for you and Ed. Agape

My reply

Thanks for those kind words and for your prayers.

I don't think anything like this is just coincidence. It was all pre-planned before the world began. God does lots of things in sevens. It means complete, perfect. It is his number and his stamp on things.

It can be a complete set of days, months or years, even lamps on the candlestick. It can be a complete set of days ending with the Sabbath rest, or a set of 1000-year days ending in a sabbatismos rest. Heb. 4:9 says, "There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." II Thess. 1:7 says, "to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f) with his mighty angels."

It can also be seven months from receiving his kingdom to his glorious Second Advent. The dead bodies need to be buried to cleanse the land (Eze. 39:12,13). It can be the seven-year trial that is to come upon all the Earth. Our age ends with the Tribulation. The Millennium begins with seven years of burning weapons. They will not be needed in the Millennium. Along with burning the weapons, we are told that "they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests." This allows the trees to regrow. There will have been a huge catastrophe that burned all the green grass and many trees. It makes sense in the first part of the Millennium. It doesn't make sense if it is applied to the Tribulation, when they have the trees and need the weapons.

During the Tribulation, the instructions are to "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong" (Joel 3:10). In the Millennium, the instructions will be different. Isa. 2:4 says, "he shall judge among the nations (Judgment of the Nations, Mt. 25:32f), and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

It seems that their beating their swords into plowshares would include making domestic products out of the metal in the weapons that they are not going to need. The fires may be to melt the metal so it can be reused. The Lord may have new technology to introduce to the world at that time too. I may not understand exactly how Eze. 39:10 will be carried out, but I am certain that it will come to pass, and that it will follow the Day of God's Wrath, not come before it. Eze. 39:8 says, "Behold, it is come, and IT IS DONE, saith the Lord GOD; this is THE DAY whereof I have spoken." Hope to see you soon. Agape

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Re: Rapture?
we have just read a very long article regarding some of the leaders of the world and so on, in this persons interp. of the coming of Jesus he states that Jesus will not come until the 2000 years are over.

My question is this, How can anyone determine where we are in time since both the Jewish and the Gregorian calendars are off? From when do we start counting the 2000 years? Is it from Christ birth or his death? And is it possible that we have another 31 years to wait? I read in they say the year is really 6002 and that against the 3rd day,(being 2003) Jesus will come for us. They try to explain how the two calendars are off and how they determined the day by the moon cycles. I have heard some like Jack Vanimpe say it could be the year 2028 before Jesus comes. I know the scriptures say we are not in darkness concerning these things and that these things were made known. To my understanding that means God shows us all things in his word. If we search his word we will find it. Is this correct? Is there anywhere in Gods word that pertains to the year of Christ Return to take the Bride? Thank you for taking the time with us all to challenge us to search out God's word and to be what God desires us to be. What a blessing it will be for you to hear GOD sing his Praise to YOU for your obedience.

My reply

> > the 2000 years started when Christ was 32 years old at his death.

I think that is a mistake. To me, the only year that fits all the clues is 30 AD. At the 1st Passover of his ministry, the temple had been 46 years in building. It was begun in 4024 AH (BC 20/19), so the 46th year was 4069 AH (27 AD). He was baptized near Tishri 1 when he was 30 the previous year, 4068 AH (26 AD). That was the 15th year of Tiberius, who was Co-Rex with Augustus in 4054 AH (12 AD). He was over Palestine from that time on, Augustus taking care of other areas of his Empire. Tiberius became Sole-Rex in 4056 AH (14 AD). I think Jesus was born Tishri 1 in 4039 AH (BC 5) and was crucified and resurrected in 4072 AH (30 AD). That was the Jewish 3790, which was not a Sabbatic Year. The Sabbatic Year was 3787 (4069 AH) (27 AD), the year of Jesus' 1st Passover.

The wise men visited Jesus when he lived in a house. Herod had the male children killed in Bethlehem that were 2 or under. Therefore, I think the wise men visited him in BC 3, and Herod died soon after the lunar eclipse of Jan. 10, BC 1.

I put this on a spreadsheet so I could keep it straight in my head, but even then it isn't easy, because AH years (Anno Hominus, year of man) and Jewish years start with Tishri 1, our Sept. or Oct. instead of our Jan. 1. On top of that, you have to keep in mind that the Jews counted blocks of years by inclusive reckoning, where the 1st year is counted.

I'm glad the Lord gave us another check to see if we worked that puzzle correctly. 30 AD agrees with Dan. 9:25. There were 483 years from the first year of Cyrus to the Crucifixion. Isa. 44:28 says, "Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even SAYING TO JERUSALEM, THOU SHALT BE BUILT, AND TO THE TEMPLE, THY FOUNDATION SHALL BE LAID." Martin Anstey ("Romance of Bible Chronology") found an 82-year mistake in the era of the Persian Kings. BC 536 - 82 = BC 454. 483 - 454 + 1 (no zero year) = 30 AD.

> > How can anyone determine where we are in time since both the Jewish and the Gregorian calendars are off?

AH years are constant.

> > From when do we start counting the 2000 years? Is it from Christ birth or his death?

The First Coming was his birth. There is no possible way that I can see that his First Coming could be his death. That would be his First Going. :-)

> > is it possible that we have another 31 years to wait?

I don't think so. Could you even imagine Israel and the Palestinians fighting each other for the next 31 years before things come to a head over there? How many people would be left by that time? It seems to me that they are killing them off faster than they are being born.

> > in they say the year is really 6002 and that against the 3rd day,(being 2003) Jesus will come for us.

I think 6040 AH (1997/1998 AD) was the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of the Garden. Man began to be tested as mortal and knowing both good and evil then. I think Adam was tested 40 years before that. Lots of people start counting the 6000 years from 4004 BC without adding up the years given in the Bible. They seem to take Usshur's date for gospel truth without further checking. I think Adam was created 40 years before that. However, It doesn't matter much for I think man's 6,000-year test as mortal and knowing both good and evil had to start when Adam was judged and cast out of the Garden. Before that, Adam's test was different. He was tested in innocence. He was merely told not to eat of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:17). After he was cast out, mankind was to obey his conscience. We know in our own heads what is right and wrong if we stop to think about it.

After 1616 more years, man was to obey Human Government. After 427 more years, he was to believe God's promise. After 430 more years, he was to obey God's laws given at Sinai. After 1559 more years, the Dispensation of Grace began. I think it will end at the Jewish New Year in 2007.

That NYD will be Sept. 13, 2007, the first day of the Jewish 5768, which is a Jewish Leap Year. That is important, for there are 7 months between Tishri 1 and the following return of Christ on Nisan 1, 5768. That year has to be a Leap Year. This agrees with Eze. 39:12,13. Since we have to leave room for the Tribulation to follow the Rapture, 5768 is the first Leap Year that seems possible. Jewish Leap Years are years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 19 of their 19-year cycle.

Until last Pentecost passed, I thought the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 would run from Pentecost in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. That bothered me from time to time, but it seemed to fit so well, I hung onto it. One thing that bothered me was when I figured out that Pentecost should be on Sivan 7. The 2300 days wouldn't fit unless it was on Sivan 6 and was counted by inclusive reckoning. The other thing that bothered me was Eze. 45:18-21. It says, "In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary...In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, he shall have the passover." This 1st month had to be Nisan 1, and the sanctuary will be cleansed.

Dan. 8:14 says, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." If it is cleansed on Nisan 1, it is cleansed at the Second Advent. Counting the 2300 days back from Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008), places the beginning of the 2300 days on Dec. 19, 2001. I am hoping for the Rapture before that. Two good chances seem to be the Feast of Trumpets (Sept. 18) and Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 3), when Noah went into the Ark and the door was closed by the Lord.

> > God shows us all things in his word. If we search his word we will find it. Is this correct?

I'm convinced that all the clues are in Scripture. Jesus said, "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mk. 13:23). Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." If we have figured anything wrong, Moses and Elijah will set it straight after the Rapture. Luke 8:17 says, "Nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest: neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad." I take it that we are to look for the things that are hidden. Prov. 2:2-4 says, "incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for HID treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."

> > Is there anywhere in Gods word that pertains to the year of Christ Return to take the Bride?

We are not given the year point blank. We are given clues, but we have to work the puzzle. Why? so the wicked will not know. Dan. 12:10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." It takes the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us. Isa. 28:9 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." The church is old now, not a babe. She is ready for strong meat. Heb. 5:14 says, "strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

To figure when the Rapture could be, it seems that we have to determine when the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent will be, then count the 2300 days backward from the Second Advent to get the beginning of the Tribulation. The Pre-Trib Rapture should precede that date. Eze. 29:17 gives us the month and day of the Second Advent, Nisan 1, the 1st day of the Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year. Verse 17 gives us Nisan 1. Then v. 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Word, Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD." Hos. 6:3 also gives it as being on the same day as the latter rain, Nisan 1. He came as the former rain on Tishri 1.

Jer. 5:24 says, "Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in HIS SEASON: HE RESERVETH UNTO US THE APPOINTED WEEKS OF THE HARVEST." The harvest starts on Nisan 16, the Feast of Firstfruits. It is over by Tishri 15, the Feast of Tabernacles. The lamentation in Jer. 8:20 says, "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved." This makes this coming Feast of Trumpets look like a pretty good chance for the Rapture. Sept. 18 is just before fall arrives on the 21st. Agape

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Hi. It's me, Joshua, again. I must confess that I know very little in my newfound faith, despite my now-constant studying of the subject. Here's my new question, I have several others, but I'll ask them later. For now:

Check out the rest of the site, too ( it was being advertised on the local chat network I tend to go on to talk to some of my local friends when the phone isn't readily available. Tell me your thoughts on it. Post this on your P&C if you feel such the need to. In Christ, Joshua.

My reply

It sure is nice to hear from you again.

Whew! I almost didn't get through that tiresome file. To me, the author doesn't prove his point, just repeats the names endlessly, as if repetition could make it so. He doesn't seem to realize that Satan has counterfeited lots of things to confuse mankind. We can't throw out everything that sounds like something pagan.

God confused the tongues at the Tower of Babel. Therefore, I don't think that we have to only use an archaic Hebrew name for God or for the Redeemer. If that were the case, there would be but a handful saved in the Tribulation. Yet, there will be "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev. 7:9). Those "tongues" are different languages.

> > our Maker has only one Name: 'Y┴OHU' but many titles: the Most High, the Holy One of Israel, the Almighty, the Creator, the Commander of the Armies, Maker, the Father and so on. For His Son, only one Name: 'YAOH┌SHUA.' Titles are: Molkhi˙l (King), hol-MEHUSHKH┴Y (Anointed One) or King of kings, also Prince of Peace, the Bread of Life, Advocate, Savior, Redeemer

The author doesn't seem to understand that the pre-incarnate Son of God really is both the LORD of the Old Testament and the Lord of the New Testament. He is the one that has dealt with mankind all along. The "Almighty" is Christ in Rev. 1:8: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY. Christ is the Most High in Dan. 7:27: "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of THE MOST HIGH, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." The Redeemer (Christ) is the Holy One of Israel. Isa. 41:14 says, "Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL." Christ is the creator. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3).

> > 'I (Y┴OHU UL) will change the speech of My returning, repentant people to pure Hebrew, that they may worship Y┴OHU UL together.' - Zephaniah 3:9 Tanakh.

Zeph. 3:9 in the Complete Jewish Bible says, "For then I will change the peoples, so that they will have pure lips, to call on the name of ADONAI (Jewish substitution for YHVH), all of them, and serve him with one accord." The KJV says, "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD (YHVH), to serve him with one consent." A pure language does not have to Hebrew, although it could be. Since the language will be changed so all can serve him with one consent, it shows that we do not all have to use the same language now. That will come later.

> > So if you want to belong to that body of believers whom the Most High considers as truly His own, joint-heirs with YAOH┌SHUA hol-MEHUSHKH┴Y, you must give up many things! You have to engage in a trade or exchange with your Maker! 'Whoever seeks to withhold his life shall lose it, but whoever gives up his life for My sake, shall all the more find it!' said YAOH┌SHUA hol-MEHUSHKH┴Y in Matthew 10:39, Holy Scriptures. 'So no one can become My disciple unless he first sits down and counts his blessings - and then renounces them all for Me!' said Molkhi˙l YAOH┌SHUA hol-MEHUSHKH┴Y in Luke 14:33.

He is adding something besides faith to be saved. Rom. 10:9,10 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Does it say we have to give up many things to be saved? NO! At that point, God takes us as we are.

> > Is it correct to use the title 'El Shaddai'? A. No. It's incorrect. A simple research into the true personality of 'El' in babylonian and chaldee mythology, will reveal that 'El' was a very popular pagan idol in the early history of those people. He was an idol associated with incest, lust, immorality and treachery.

The pagan religions are Satan's counterfeit religions. We can't throw out everything Satan decides to counterfeit, although he would sure laugh behind our backs if we would.

If I were you, I'd forget this author's writing. During Jesus' ministry, the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek translation of the Old Testament, was in use. He didn't take it away from the Jews because it was in a different language. There are quotes from the LXX in the New Testament. May God bless you greatly. Agape

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Rapture -- Or Tribulation

My reply

Thanks. It was pretty much what I already know. The thing that I found interesting was when he said that apostasia in II Thess. 4 was from the root aphistemi, which is translated DEPART FROM eleven times. I looked apostasia up in Strong's. 646 apostasia is from the same as 647 apostacion (divorce, divorcement). Both are from 868 aphistemi, to remove, depart.

For aphistemi, Thayer has these meanings: cause to withdraw, to remove, to go away, depart from, withdraw from, flee from, withdraw one's self from, absent one's self from.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Rapture departing (apostasia) must come first, before the wicked one can be revealed. Agape

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From: South Africa
Re: A Testimony
I thought I would share this vision with you. Yesterday evening, in Church, our Minister (The Morelata Park NG Church is an Afrikaans "Nederduitse Gerefomeerde" Church - so I think that the best translation of "Dominee" would be "Minister" - Afrikaans is one of the other languages spoken in SA, along with all the Black languages that are now official languages). Our Minister always asks the congregation whether there is anyone who has a testimony to share with the congregation.....and Louis came forward. I also didn't know who Louis is, but now I do.

He had a dream that he could see himself dreaming a dream. In the dream of a dream he saw a factory burning, then realised it was more than one factory and that surrounding buildings and some houses were also starting to burn. He watched as people scurried about trying unsuccessfully to extinguish the flames and others tossing valuables, like paintings and furniture, out of windows and the pandemonium abounding because the flames could not be extinguished.....then he heard a voice urging him to tell the people that they were wasting their time trying to rescue their material possessions....that the time was short, there would only be a short time before all, even the houses, would be consumed with a fire that could not be extinguished.

As he tried to tell the people, his dream vision woke up and he found himself dreaming the exact dream - in minute detail. He woke up with a start and had an astonishing feeling that he had just had a flash of feeling the power and majesty of the presence of God.

He shared with us that he remembered both dreams in stark detail and the feeling he had of Gods awesome presence made him realise just how wonderful that feeling will be for an eternity. The significance of the dream also made him realise that the return of our majestic God and Father is iminent - there is very little time left till THE END.......and that we need to get our focus straight! focus on God and His word and not on the material things around us, for they will be consumed.

I thought that was wonderful......even the fact that there are fellow believers out there who are aware of the "ends of the age".

Lets keep our focus on Gods triumphant return!

Much love and blessings in Jesus Name - Agape

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. We do need to stay ready. Agape

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