Pro and Con 809

Posted 9-26-01

Re: Best synopsis I have found:
America’s War Coalition Flip Flops
9-24-01: DEBKAfile’s experts offer a short guide to the maneuvers surrounding America’s attempts to build an international bloc of supporters for its war against terrorism.

First-line backers: Britain, Canada, Australia, Germany, France, Russia, Turkey and Pakistan. Second-line Support...
German KSK Commandos Dropped by Helicopter into Afghanistan Sunday Night, to Join US and British Special Forces
Russian Intelligence Officers Guide US Commandos through Afghan Mountains Following Putin’s Offer of Cooperation US War Effort

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From: Finland
Re: spirit of antichrist
The picture and accounts of present "Vicar of Christ" tell us - more than anything else - what time it is. Tribulation is coming SOON.

The picture tells us more than 1000 words. All over "Christian" world we are facing same dilemma - the sour result of mixing religions and peoples. The only way out - leaders of the world think - is that they try to make a regular soup - mixing Bible and koran and make a One World Religion, supposedly withouth much problems. How wrong are those that think so. They will condemn true believers as "extremists". They tell us that we should cooperate, tolerate and accept many blasphemous things.

I much fear that America also will face the horrible results of this tolerance and permissiveness. In the coming years the text in Dollar bills "In God we trust" will maybe be a reference to a mixture God, where Jahve, allah and maybe some others jointly protect the country.

Luckily; wise virgins are gone before that. Agape

My reply

Well said. There are several articles on the Pope's trip. The following one has important things in it that are not mentioned in other reports. Emphasis is mine.
Pope Decries Wars Over Faith
In Volatile Central Asia, Pontiff Pleads for Tolerance, By Sharon LaFraniere
ASTANA, Kazakhstan, 9-23-01 - In a special prayer at the end of an open-air Mass, Pope John Paul II today urged Christians and Muslims to react to growing international tensions by working together for peace, saying, "religion must never be used as a reason for conflict."

"We must not let what has happened lead to a deepening of divisions," the pope said in the capital of this former Soviet republic in Central Asia. "With all my heart I beg God to keep the world in peace."...

The 81-year-old pope sought to include all faiths in his message of peace and reconciliation. "I wish to make an earnest call to everyone, Christians and the followers of other religions, that we work together to build a world without violence, a world that loves life, and grows in justice and solidarity," he said in a final prayer repeated in German, English, Russian and Kazakh and not included in his prepared text.

John Paul's first visit to Kazakhstan -- the 95TH FOREIGN TRIP of his pontificate -- is significant in several respects. Like Syria, where he traveled in May, Kazakhstan is predominantly Muslim, and a good setting for the POPE'S CALL FOR HARMONY AMONG RELIGIONS....

...THE POPE WAS SHOT BY A TURKISH TERRORIST IN ROME IN 1981, and a second assassination plot in the Philippines was foiled in 1995. Philippine officials have established links between those Manila conspirators and Osama bin Laden, the Islamic extremist in Afghanistan blamed by the United States for the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
It makes me wonder when I read Rev. 13:3,14. It says, "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED...they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." Rev. 13:7,8 says, "power was given him OVER ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb." Agape
Pope Makes Dramatic Appeal For World To Avoid War
9-23-1 ASTANA (Reuters) - Pope John Paul issued a dramatic appeal on Sunday that the world should not slide into war following the attacks on the United States.

"With all my heart, I beg God to keep the world in peace," the 81-year-old Pope said at the end of a mass for some 50,000 people in Kazakhstan, a Central Asian republic which may be caught up in an eventual regional crisis after the attacks.

"We must not let what has happened lead to a deepening of divisions. Religion must never be used as a reason for conflict," he said...

"I wish to make an earnest call to everyone, Christians and the followers of other religions, that we work together to build a world without violence, a world that loves life, and grows in justice and solidarity,'' he said, reading in English.

"From this place, I invite both Christians and Muslims to raise an intense prayer to the one, almighty God whose children we all are, that the supreme good of peace may reign in the world.

"May people everywhere, strengthened by divine wisdom, work for a civilization of love, in which there is no room for hatred, discrimination or violence," he said.
Pope Praises Islam, Says Terror Profanes God
9-24-01 ASTANA, Kazakhstan (Reuters) - Pope John Paul said Monday that terrorism profanes God and disfigures man and stressed that the Catholic Church has great respect for "authentic Islam."

"I wish to reaffirm the Catholic Church's respect for Islam, for authentic Islam, the Islam that prays, that is concerned for those in need," he told a meeting of Kazakh intellectuals....

"It is an important time for the world..."I urge you to work for a more united world...."
Sharon: Israel wants to give Palestinians possibility of a state
In a statement viewed as a potentially historic declaration by a Likud prime minister, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said that Israel wants to give the Palestinians "what no one else has heretofore given them - the possibility of establishing a state".

"The state of Israel is a nation that desires peace, and will do everything to achieve a true and open peace. We are not fighting the Palestinians, we are fighting terrorism," Sharon said Sunday evening in remarks broadcast Monday by Israel Radio.
Alert by Saddam points to Iraq
by Jessica Berry in Jerusalem, Philip Sherwell and David Wastell in Washington
23/09/01 - SADDAM HUSSEIN put his troops on their highest military alert since the Gulf war two weeks before the suicide attacks on America in the strongest indication yet that the Iraqi dictator knew an atrocity was planned....

The "operational brains" behind the September 11 attack have been named by an Israeli intelligence official as Imad Mugniyeh, the head of special overseas operations for Hizbollah, and Ayman al Zawahri, an Egyptian and a senior figure in al-Qaeda. The official quoted by Jane's, the military journal, said they "were probably financed and got some logistical support from the Iraqi intelligence service"...

In a further development, Iraqi exiles have learnt from contacts in Baghdad that 58 young pilots, handpicked for their loyalty to the regime, underwent a rigorous three-month suicide mission course in 1999. The training took place at two separate airbases in Iraq.

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Re: Yatsa' - KJV Hebrew Lexicon "THE END"
Marilyn, here are the listings for the Hebrew use of the word "END" as is used in Exodus 23:16.

My reply

Thanks much. Here are some highlights that show how easily "yatsa" could picture a Rapture.

Yatsa Definition
to go out, come out, exit, go forth
to go or come out or forth, depart
to go forth (to a place)
to go forward, proceed to (to or toward something)
to come or go forth (with purpose or for result)
to come out of
to cause to go or come out, bring out, lead out
to bring out of
to lead out
to deliver
(Hophal) to be brought out or forth

King James Word Usage - Total: 1069
....out 518, ....forth 411, bring 24, come 24, proceed 16, go 13, depart 10, miscellaneous 53

Ge 1:12 the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind

Ge 8:16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Ge 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Ex 7:5 the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Ex 13:16 the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

Eze 3:22 the hand of the LORD was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will there talk with thee.

Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Eze 26:18 the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

Jer 29:2 Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem

Jer 38:23 So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Isa 2:3 many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

Isa 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.

Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

Mal 4:2 unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

So 3:11 Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart.

So 7:11 Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages.

Ps 105:38 Egypt was glad when they departed

Ps 136:11 brought out Israel from among them

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> > Rev. 3:10 is translated in the Hebraic-Roots Version (HRV), "Because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from the temptation that will come on ALL THE INHABITED EARTH, to prove all the inhabitants of the earth."

WOW,,, this is even better....." I WILL keep you...." Hallelu-YAH

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Re: warning
I was wondering if you know what exactly is the warning was that was given to Noah, and did the rest of the people of that day see or hear of it.

You (everyone) it seems can feel that something is about to happen.

The thought of no more anxiety, pain, doubt and mystery (coincidences) that has plagued my life just seems to be unimaginable, impossible--- I'm not sure I can put it into words, But, throughout this extremely strange trip that's been my life, I've always felt that -- I'm sorry I can not put it any other way, if there is God, He has it all under control in loving justice.

Hoping the foolishness of this frustrating, hideous, nonsensical world come to an END!

My reply

> > what exactly is the warning was that was given to Noah, and did the rest of the people of that day see or hear of it.

Only Noah was told. Gen. 7:1-4 says, "the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens...For YET SEVEN DAYS, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

> > if there is God, He has it all under control in loving justice.

Yes, God is real, and he has it all under his control. All prophecies are being fulfilled right before our eyes. It is an exciting time to live in.

There was a time when my overworked mother-in-law needed another beauty operator in her shop. She said, "If there is a God, please send me an operator." Immediately, in walked an operator. God knows what we need, even before we ask him.

In these days left us, people should make sure of 2 things, that they have accepted Jesus Christ as their own personal Saviour (Rom. 10:9,10), and that they have confessed to God all sins committed since accepting Christ (I John 1:9). We need to be wearing spiritual white robes of righteousness so we won't be left behind like the lukewarm Laodiceans in Rev. 3:14f.

When Christ is given his kingdom (Dan. 7:14), he will purge out the dross right away. Agape

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Re: Ships of Chittim
Hello my Sister in the Lord, First - a Big Thank You for your faithfulness. Your loving answers to the person on the most recent Pro&Con were from a wise and kind heart.

Your discussion really helped me as I think I have it rough with the people in our Prayer Meeting group who say things like..."oh..I forgot all about you saying that the Rapture might be near" and just today an e-mail from a friend in CA.."take me off your list! I don't think the events in NYC require me to 'shape up'!

Question: When I saw the big USA battleships leaving port, I was reminded of Daniel 11:30 - 'For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.'

*Is this an event that will take place in the not so distant future?

*Do we have any clue that Chittim might indeed be the USA? With Thanks, Looking Up

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

I think Dan. 11:30 is still talking about Antiochus Epiphanes, although the view of Antiochus may blend into that of the False Prophet that starts in verse 36. Both "pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (v. 31). For sure, the passage overleaps the centuries "to the time of the end" at v. 35.

Chittim seems to be the isle of Cyprus. Jer. 2:10 says, "pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing." Isa. 23:1,12 says, "The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them....And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest." Tyre and Sidon/Zidon are on the coast of Israel near Cyprus. Agape

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Re: gross!
Palestinians Open Terrorist Museum

Palestinians on the West Bank opened a musuem over the weekend that pays tribute to the kind of terrorists that killed 7,000 Americans in attacks on the Twin Towers and Pentagon two weeks ago.

"Visitors crowded through the door to see a recreation of the Aug 9 suicide attack at (Jerusalem's) Sbarro Pizza restaurant, complete with fake body parts and pizza slices strewn all over," reported the New York Daily News Monday.

Other exhibits featured wax figures dressed as suicide terrorists, each holding a copy of Islam's Holy Koran in one hand and an AK-47 in the other.

"Our message from this exhibition to our people is that the occupiers will suffer as long as we are under occupation," museum organizer Ala Hamedan said.

My reply

Oh my. I get the feeling that they want to be classed as terrorists. Do they think that will further their cause? Agape

Incoming email with my comments marked ***

Re: I have several questions. Would you please be so kind as to help me with them?

1. What did the Lord mean when He said that there are some who are born eunuchs, there are some made eunuchs by men (I understand these two parts) and there are some who make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of God? (this is the part I don't understand).

***It would have been all right to marry, but Paul did not marry, so that his whole attention was on spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. It would have been hard to travel as he did if he had had a family to take care of. There were times that he was hungry. He could not have let a family go hungry. I Cor. 7:33 says, "he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife."

2. Are there two brides of Christ? One seems to be a group of saved and prepared Christians, the other seems to be the Heavenly Jerusalem the Angel show to John, saying "Come with me and I'll show you the Lamb's wife."

***Isa. 62:4 says, "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married." Like Abraham, in the Millennium, some Israelites will be in Heaven (Heb. 11). Others will be on Earth.

***The Body of Christ is one body (I Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:16), so I certainly think the heavenly Bride of Christ is one. When the Lamb's wife is mentioned in Rev. 19:7, the Marriage of the Lamb has already come, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is about to begin.

***Rev. 19:7 Literal Version (LITV) says, "Let us rejoice and let us exult, and we will give glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife prepared herself."

***(YLT) "may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready."

3. What does it mean in Revelation when it talks about the 144,000 who follow the Lord where every He goes and have not DEFILED THEMSELVES WITH WOMEN, THEY ARE VIRGINS. Is there something defiling about sexual intercourse (I know it is not right outside of marriage), because it seems if that meant they were virgins, it would have just said they are virgins and not put the defiling part in there.

***I think this "women" is symbolic rather than literal. It can stand for the harlot World Church of the Tribulation. Heb. 13:4 says, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

***"In Zech. 5:5f, the world church is portrayed as the ephah, largest wheat measure. "This is their resemblance through all the earth." There is "a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah." She portrays the harlot church of Rev. 17. In the Tribulation, there will be the amalgamation now called the United Religions. In Zech. 5:9, "there came out two women" (i.e., 2 religious groups) to move the headquarters of the world church to Babylon in the land of Shinar, where the Tower of Babel was started. She will be "SET there upon her own base" (Zech. 5:11).

***In Rev. 17:3, John saw her being moved to the desert wilderness. It says, "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw A WOMAN SIT upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns." This woman is "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:5).

***Rev. 17:4: "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls." This is the same woman as in Rev. 18:16, "that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls."

***"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication (joined) and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that nighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come" (Rev. 18:9).

***In Rev. 2:21-25, Jesus said, "I gave her space to repent of her fornication (joining); and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come."

***We seem to be very near the end of her space to repent. Instead of repenting, she is going to join all religions of the world, forgetting that Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

***In Kazakhstan, the Pope said, "I wish to make an earnest call to everyone, Christians and the followers of other religions, that we work together to build a world without violence, a world that loves life, and grows in justice and solidarity," In my own head, I add, "and which are not told the only way to be saved, what a shame."

***The Pope also said, "From this place, I invite both Christians and Muslims to raise an intense prayer to the one, almighty God whose children we all are, that the supreme good of peace may reign in the world." He doesn't even seem to know that YHVH and Allah are not the same God. Losing their souls is a dear price to pay for "peace." Jer. 8:9-11 says, "they have rejected the word of the LORD (YHVH); and what wisdom is in them?...from the prophet (False Prophet) even unto the priest (Pope) every one dealeth falsely. For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people (i.e., modern Israel) slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace."

Thank you for any light you can shed.

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Still gulping down your Pros and Con's as usual! Your such a blessing. I guess I'm kinda mixed up. Could you explain? Shouldn't the false prophet (I would think this would be the next pope sinces he's supposed to be Jewish?) arise before the ac? and won't the ac be Jewish? I studied the tribe of Dan and it seems as if he will come from that tribe and possibly Syria.

now would the ac already know he's the ac or not be aware of that? would he be indwelt by satan after he is killed or from the beginning? and what about the beast? is that the third one of the unholy trinity? what would his role be? doesen't the false prophet lead people to worship the ac. When he comes as a man of peace does he come not indwelt by satan is what I'm trying to say. (see how confused I am?)AND THEN after revived becomes indwelt by satan.

ok Marilyn, now that I've totally confused you! Can you please explain the unholy trinity to me? May God bless you and Ed. abundantly. In Christ

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

> > Shouldn't the false prophet (I would think this would be the next pope sinces he's supposed to be Jewish?) arise before the ac?? and won't the ac be Jewish??

There are 2 men that will rule during the Tribulation, the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 and the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18. These are the names the Bible gives them. Rev. 20:10 says, "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

I think THE BEAST that rules during the 1st half of the Tribulation is the Tribulation Pope. He could be Polish, or anything else, and still be called a Roman. He doesn't have to be a Jew. I think the FALSE PROPHET will be a Jew, maybe originally from Syria and of the tribe of Dan. To me, the False Prophet is the final Antichrist. He will be Satan indwelt. He will rule during the last half of the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation that has to be shortened or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:21,22).

> > would the ac already know he's the ac or not be aware of that?

I don't expect him to know now. I don't know about later.

> > would he be indwelt by satan after he is killed or from the beginning?

I don't expect the False Prophet to be killed. Also, I don't expect him to be indwelt by Satan before Mid-Trib, when Satan is cast out of heaven and down to the Earth (Rev. 12:9).

As Pope John Paul II was shot by a Turkish terrorist in 1981, the Beast may already have had an attempt made on his life, which he survived. Also, there may be something else happen Mid-Trib that will enable the False Prophet to take over the duties of the Beast, for he "exerciseth all the power of the first beast" (Rev. 13:12).

> > what about the beast? is that the third one of the unholy trinity?

There is Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet. We get a little more information about the Beast and False Prophet in Zech. 5:1-4. It says, "I turned, and lifted up mine eyes (to view the sky), and looked, and behold a flying roll (a flying rolling thing, probably a binary asteroid). And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then said he unto me, This is THE CURSE THAT GOETH FORTH (orbits) OVER THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it (as if it was represented by the two stone tablets with the commandments on them). I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet, who steals the church), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Pope, who claims infallibility): and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof." > > doesen't the false prophet lead people to worship the ac

The False Prophet is the Antichrist. He has them worship an image of the Beast (Rev. 13:14,15).

> > When he comes as a man of peace does he come not indwelt by satan is what I'm trying to say. (see how confused I am??)AND THEN after revived becomes indwelt by satan.

The Beast rides forth on a white horse as a prince of peace as the Tribulation begins. Rev. 6:2 says, "he that sat on him had a bow (Strong's 5115 toxon, from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow). This shows that he is a man of the cloth, a religious figure. I do not think he will be indwelt by Satan. It is the False Prophet that will be Satan-possessed Mid-Trib.

The Tribulation Pope also rides the red horse and the black horse. As the 4th seal is broken, the False Prophet becomes Satan-possessed Mid-Trib. Rev. 6:8 says, "behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was DEATH (the False Prophet), and HELL (Satan) followed with him."

Isa. 28:15 says, "Because ye have said, We have made a COVENANT with DEATH, and with HELL are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves." Isa. 28:18 says, "And your COVENANT with DEATH shall be disannulled, and your agreement with HELL shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." Hab. 2:5 says, "Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as HELL, and is as DEATH, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him ALL NATIONS, and heapeth unto him all people." Agape

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