Pro and Con 820

Posted 10-17-01

Third European Country Calls For Palestinian State ...Ireland and Holland have now called for the establishment of a Palestinian state.
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Sharon says `Yes, with conditions' to a Palestinian state http://test.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=83588&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
10-17-01 ...He said he has a plan ready to offer the Palestinians but won't reveal it, lest it become the starting point for future negotiations...
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=11198
President Calls for "Sanhedrin-Type Body"
President Moshe Katzav has called for the establishment of a "Sanhedrin-type" body that will deal with all the halakhic [Jewish legal] issues....

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Re: Palestinian statehood
Bless you for posting Daniel Rydstedt's "BE THE BRIDE". World events and Bible prophecy is in our faces...I believe we are looking at the Gate saying "Come quickly, Lord!" Chanukah will tie in nicely. God Bless you and your families. Agape'
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Palestinian statehood backed in US, UK By Douglas Davis, Janine Zacharia, and Herb Keinon LONDON/WASHINGTON/JERUSALEM 10-16 - The Palestinian statehood cause received boosts on both sides of the Atlantic yesterday...British Prime Minister Tony Blair declared that there is now an urgent need to "seize the moment" and reinvigorate the peace process, leading to the creation of a viable Palestinian state.

Arafat called on the Israeli government to immediately resume final-status negotiations...

Blair and Bush now appear to believe that by "flexing their diplomatic muscle" and returning the parties to the negotiating table - with, perhaps, the intrusive involvement of the US and the European Union - they will not only pacify Arab leaders but also calm the rising anti-American sentiment on the Arab and Islamic streets....
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Terrorism may soon lead to global governance (Henry Lamb)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24915
The world is very close to giving the United Nations the tools it needs to enforce its vision of global governance. This new treaty on terrorism could provide the public support the United Nations needs....

All of these pieces of global governance have been under construction for years. They are all coming together now. The events of Sept. 11, and America's response, will serve the same purpose World War II did in providing justification for creating an international authority to end war – or terrorism – as the case may be.

The United States is the only power on earth strong enough to prevent this terror on the horizon – this last step toward global governance. So far, President Bush has resisted the pressure.
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Attackers did not know they were to die, by David Rose http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,573707,00.html The Observer 10-14-01 FBI investigators have officially concluded that 11 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked the aircraft on 11 September did not know they were on a suicide mission, Whitehall intelligence sources said last night. Unlike the eight 'lead' attackers, who were all trained pilots, they did not leave messages for friends and family indicating they knew their lives were over....

It is understood the FBI has found evidence suggesting the 11 men expected to take part in 'conventional' hijackings...

Western security chiefs say another suicide hijacking of a passenger aircraft would be far more difficult: assuming their fate to be death, passengers would probably deal swiftly with an attempt.
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Earth smash spawned Moon
by Dr David Whitehouse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_298000/298157.stm
The Earth and Moon were once one
3-17-99 The Moon was blasted away from the early Earth by a massive interplanetary collision, according to an idea which has received strong new support.

The new data comes from the Lunar Prospector spacecraft and was presented at a scientific meeting in Houston, Texas.

"This is a critical finding in helping scientists determine how the Earth and the Moon formed," said Dr Alan Binder, principal investigator of the Lunar Prospector mission.

The new results show that the lunar core contains less than four percent of its total mass. This is a very small ratio compared to the Earth - its core has about 30 percent of the planet's mass....

If the Moon had started as an independent planet, it too would have a large iron core. However, the Moon's small core suggests it is a chunk of rock knocked out of the early Earth, after most of the iron there had separated out.

The collision theory suggests that a planet about the size of Mars struck the ancient Earth. It would have almost disintegrated both planets and left huge clouds of debris orbiting what remained of the Earth.

"This impact occurred after the Earth's iron core had formed, so it ejected rocky, iron-poor material from the outer shell into orbit," Dr Binder said, "It was this material that collected to form the Moon."
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Revealing the Moon's secrets
By Dr David Whitehouse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1999/07/99/the_moon_landing/newsid_395000/395447.stm
7-16-99 The birth of the Moon nearly destroyed the Earth
...A world about the size of Mars was heading straight for the primitive and lifeless Earth.

At eight kilometres (five miles) a second they ground into each other. Rock became not just molten but flash vapourised; the ever growing circle of the impact glowed blue-hot and sprayed fragmented and superheated molten rock in all directions. Molten and vapourised rock plumed into space.

Such was the birth of our Moon, in just fifteen minutes....

Within hours the iron-deficient material became a beautiful ring around the Earth, and within days the Moon was forming....

With the recent discovery of ice in the lunar dirt at the poles, there is in the lunar rocks everything required for supporting life, and many profitable industries as well.
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Apollo samples reveal Moon's origin
Dr David Whitehouse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1593000/1593504.stm
10-11-01 Analysis of lunar samples returned by the Apollo astronauts confirms previous indications that the ratios of the different types, or isotopes, of oxygen in the Moon's soil are similar to those of Earth. It is a finding that is consistent with the giant impact model for the Moon's formation....

Similar composition
The giant Impact model is the most widely accepted theory for the origin of the Moon. It proposes that the satellite formed from debris thrown into space following a collision between an early-stage Earth and a Mars-sized object....

the ratios of isotopes of oxygen for Earth and Moon rocks are almost identical.... ---
Moon's orbit betrays its violent birth
By Dr David Whitehouse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_645000/645007.stm
2-16-00 The Moon forms in about a year at the outer edge of the debris disk, at a distance of about 22,500 kilometres (14,000 miles) from the Earth.

The key point is that after the Moon coalesced, its gravity would generate waves in the inner disk. The gravitational interaction of the Moon with these waves would then modify the young Moon's orbit.

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Re: United Religions Initiative
What ever happened to "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"

The founder of the United Religions Initiative, a movement that seeks to become the dominant religious voice at the UN, blamed religion for the September 11th terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. At a Wednesday meeting at the UN Church Center, the Episcopal Bishop of San Francisco, William E. Swing, asserted that the hijackers did not hold a corrupted version of Islam because religions - all religions - are guilty of fostering terrorism. "There is a lot of terror and violence in a lot of scripture. There has to be a critique of that. We have to hold the religions' feet to the fire for the violence and terror within them." Agape

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Re: Check out The Beginning of the End
http://chn-net.com/commentaries/bible_school/the_beginning_of_the_end.html

Marilyn, what are your thoughts on this Sal claims that Rapture is this spring.

My reply

I went to another of his files to better understand what he teaches about the Rapture. This makes it clearer:
> > TIS THE SEASON TO BE RAPTURED!, by Sal
> > http://chn-net.com/commentaries/2_b_raptured.html
> > ...we can expect to see and hear the message of the dead in Christ that rise on First Fruits, and we can expect that when we see and hear that warning, the Rapture will occur in fulfillment of the Ascension, 40 days later at the end of the warning time...

I doubt that the dead will rise that long ahead of us. Because of Song of Sol. 2:10-14, I have thought that Pentecost was the most likely time for the Rapture, but now, it seems like we are running out of time. I counted Dan. 8:13,14's 2300 days back from Apr. 6, 2008 (Nisan 1, 5768), when I think the Second Advent will be. It came out Dec. 19, 2001. I am hoping the Rapture will be before that. Anyway, at the rate things are happening in the world, it can't be long. We just have to get ready, watch and wait patiently until the Lord comes for the Bride of Christ.

> > THE BEGINNING OF THE END, by Sal
> > That attack was delivered by people who came from the land known in Scripture as Satan’s Seat.

He is talking about the WTC towers falling. In Rev. 2:13, "satan's seat" is at Pergamos, which was willed to Rome by Attalus III. Neither Pergamos (in Turkey) nor Rome are thought to be the homeland of these terrorists.

> > What this act of utter horror did was to effectively shut down the Palestinian’s Intafada. Where have they got to go now? If they are deemed to be terrorists, by continuing their terrorist activities, they can be totally eliminated by one of the USA’s coalition allies, namely Israel, and no one will come to their aid.
> > The Palestinians have to be shaking in their boots at this very moment. Their terrorist activities are no longer acceptable except in the countries that sponsor and harbor terrorists. And, to those governments who do, namely Libya, Syria and Iraq, the word “uproot” is about to become their worst nightmare. That leaves the Palestinian Government at the edge of precipice with nothing but a peace treaty standing between them and a world sanctioned annihilation!

Very interesting observation. We just need to keep watching the news and trying to read between the lines when things are announced. People may not always do what they say they will do, or they may have more than one battlefield in mind.

> > Paul taught that the Dead in Christ will rise on First Fruits, and we will know that as a sign that the Rapture is 40 days away. It all takes place in the 53 days of the Spring Feasts of the Jews.

I'm not as sure as he is that the Rapture will take place on Ascension Day, but it could. That fits the indicators in Song of Sol. 2:10-14 as well as Pentecost.

What I can't figure out is where "Paul taught that the Dead in Christ will rise on First Fruits." Not remembering anything like that, I did a Search for "firstfruits" in the NT without turning it up. Agape

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Re: 40 more years?
When do you see the period of desolation for Egypt? The Lord says in Ezek.29:11,12, "No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord God. At the end of forty years wil I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered."

Up until this present day it was not possible for the land to be so contaminated that nothing could survive in it or even pass through but we now know that this is very believable. Look at what the depleted uranium shells have done to the land, and Iraq has an armoury of chemical and biological weapons which can wreak havoc on the ground as well as the people. Verses 18 and 19 tell us who does this, "...Behold I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadressar king of Babylon: and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army."

This indicates to me that there are still 40 years more than most of us thought, before the Lord returns to reign. How do you see it?

My reply

I think the desolation of Egypt will be the result of the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10. That happens on the Day of God's Wrath. I expect it to take place Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Eze. 29:12 says, "I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries." Egypt's dispersal will start then and last 40 years. She is not the only country hurt. Every wall will fall that day (Eze. 38:20). The cities of the nations will fall (Rev. 16:19). However, she is the only one named that will be uninhabited for the next 40 years. Agape

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Re: God's children
I visit your sight often. Something keeps bugging me though. The two rapture theory. All throughout scripture, I can't help but see the supreme sovereignty of God in our salvation. I hope to show here how our not being worthy to recieve salvation can be compared to our being worthy or not to be taken in the 1st rapture. Here are just a few of the many verses that are such a comfort to me. John 6:44 (No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.) John 6:37 (All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.) Hebrew 12:2 (Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;...) He began our faith, and He will finish it....it was all accomplished on the cross. Romans 8:28-31 says is all to me. (And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are THE called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. MOREOVER WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE, THEM HE ALSO CALLED: AND WHOM HE CALLED, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: AND WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED. What shall we then say to these things? IF GOD BE FOR US, WHO CAN BE AGAINST US?) You see, God has done it all.....We have done nothing to earn our own salvation. Not even we could muster up faith to believe. The Bible says that even faith is the gift of God. To be born again is a miracle. What about Romans 8:38-39? (For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.) Romans 9:16 (So then it is not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that RUNNETH, but of God that sheweth mercy.) I think you may be missing the Big picture here in thinking that some believers will be left behind. You see, in the book of 1John, God lets us know without a doubt if we really are born again into His family, If we love the brethren, we have passed from death unto life. His spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. The issue that I see in the Bible is not whether we might slip and sin or forget to confess a sin and miss the rapture, rather the issue of being worthy to "escape all these things" is do we WANT to sin? If we are truly born again, God's Holy Spirit that lives in us is grieved when we sin and we feel awful until we repent. All of the truly born again believers ARE convicted of sin because the Holy Spirit dwells in them. Marilyn, What if the rapture happens in a moment that you are involved in some sin....a very small one, or one that would merit a lengthy prayer of repentance? Are you left behind because you didn't have time to repent of THAT ONE? Are we able to be so perfect as to know what every thought or action that we have, if it is pleasing to God or may fall short and be considered sin? Knowing that God is perfect and sinless and Holy, we would probably be surprised at what we do, even unknowingly,that IS SIN. The point I am trying to make is that the beautiful picture of our rebirth...is that it has created a new nature in us that does not want to sin. God Judges the heart. Paul did not want to sin, but cried out..Rom 8:24 (O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?) And what of those truly born again believers that are left behind in the 1st rapture? The witness of the Holy Spirit in their spirit that they had experienced before the rapture would be under such heart wrenching doubt, that if they had ever really experienced or tasted of the love of God before the rapture, how could they ever trust it again after having missed the rapture? No, I believe that God's Children are BORN AGAIN. The Spirit of God Dwells IN THEM. You can't say some of these just won't have enough of His spirit to enter into the 1st rapture. It is GOD that seals us with His Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Also the Bible says that we are not appointed to wrath. We are either in Christ or not in Christ. Anyway, where do you draw the line? How good do you have to be? Marilyn, the Bible says that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. We can't be good enough to be saved, nor can we be GOOD ENOUGH to be raptured. It is HIS GOODNESS AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IN US that makes us worthy to escape all these things.

My reply

> > John 6:44 (No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.)

Notice "at the last day." If there is a last day, there also is a first day, just as if there is a "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52), there is also a first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:13-18).

> > John 6:37 (All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.)

The same word for "cast" above is used in Mt. 22:13, "cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." That word "cast" is the Greek "ekbasis," to go out, an exit, end, a way to escape. This man was at the wedding feast without a wedding garment. Therefore, he was cast outside the door at the 1st Rapture. Christ will not exclude any at the 2nd Rapture, but to go in the 1st one, we must be "called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14), because it is the Bride of Christ. As far as I can tell, only the 144,000 Israelites are added to the Bride group at the 2nd Rapture. They are "virgins," "virstfruits" and "without fault before the throne of God" (Rev. 14:3-5).

> > Are you left behind because you didn't have time to repent of THAT ONE? Are we able to be so perfect as to know what every thought or action that we have, if it is pleasing to God or may fall short and be considered sin?

Jesus didn't tell us how much oil of the Holy Spirit we must have to make the first Rapture, but he did tell us that the foolish virgins will be left behind when the Bridegroom picks up his Bride (Mt. 25:1f). I John 1:9 tells us that if we confess our sins (that necessarily is known ones), then God will cleanse us of all unrighteousness" (all sin, even unknown ones). At that point, we can KNOW that we are wise virgins.

> The witness of the Holy Spirit in their spirit that they had experienced before the rapture would be under such heart wrenching doubt, that if they had ever really experienced or tasted of the love of God before the rapture, how could they ever trust it again after having missed the rapture?

Human reasoning is not always God's reasoning. Once having been born into God's family, one can not get unborn. Psa. 40:1-3 shows that many will see the Rapture take place, fear and turn to the Lord. It says, " I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (came down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up (out of Earth) also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was raised up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings (the Rapture trip). And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, AND FEAR, AND SHALL TRUST IN THE LORD."

> > It is GOD that seals us with His Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Also the Bible says that we are not appointed to wrath.

We are sealed until raptured, and both Raptures will take place before God's wrath hits Earth.

> > the Bible says that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. We can't be good enough to be saved, nor can we be GOOD ENOUGH to be raptured. It is HIS GOODNESS AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IN US that makes us worthy to escape all these things.

Jeremiah had filthy rags under the strong cord when he was raised up out of the miry pit. The filthy rags stood for our righteousness. The strong cord stood for Christ's righteousness. Without the strong cord, we can't be raised up. The filthy rags will break. However, that doesn't tell us whether we will be raised up at the first time or at the last time. The wise virgins will go with the Bridegroom when he comes. The foolish virgins will have to wash their robes in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14) to be raised up at the last trump. They can learn that lesson now, or they can learn it after the first Rapture. I treasure my chance to be one of the Bride group. Knowing that the man without a white wedding garment is cast outside the door, I have confessed all known sins. I do not want to be a "castaway."

In I Cor. 9:24f, Paul said that we all are running a race, but some are castaways. He said, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Paul mentioned the uncorruptible crown. I want that. Rev. 3:10,11 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek, out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Agape

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Re: The Trumps of God
Here is some food for thought. The first trump of God sounds on the first day of the 2300 day shortened tribulation. The trumpet sounds announcing the Lord's appearance and the beginning of the tribulation. The first of the days of the Son of Man.

The last trump of God sounds on the last day of the shortened tribulation. It is the second and last day of the son of man. The trumps of God signal start and finish for those elect men and women of God called to heaven in either the pre-trib or pre wrath rapture. It also signals a beginning and ending to the shortened tribulation..To me this makes logical sense. Each trump brings a portion of God's children to their promised land. Any thoughts?

My reply

Since you wrote this, I found out that the 2300 days would not end as the Millennium begins. They seem to run from the first day of the Tribulation to the 2nd Advent, which is 7 months (Dan. 8:13,14) after the millennial Day of the Lord begins. The sanctuary is to be cleansed on Nisan 1 (Eze. 45:18). Christ is to return on Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3).

The first and last trumps may bookend the shortened Tribulation, as you said. That sounds likely. In between the 2 trumps, Moses and Elijah would be resurrected and ascend to Heaven too, making all the heavenly saints gathered within the time from the first to the last trump. That way, the first trump would precede the breaking of the 1st seal, and the last trump would precede the breaking of the 7th seal. Agape

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I totally agree with all the things that you said in response to my question. So are you saying that when God says "I will judge thee", Israel, that they are judged with the rest of the nations left on the earth, while the church is being judged in heaven? Maybe just being on the earth during the wrath of God, even though they are protected, is a type of judgment. Thanks again for your insight. Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

> > So are you saying that when God says "I will judge thee", Israel, that they are judged with the rest of the nations left on the earth, while the church is being judged in heaven?

The REMNANT of Israel is judged with the remnants of other nations. I'll try to clarify my beliefs a bit. I think all believers, Israeli or Gentile, will be caught away to Heaven before the wrath of God strikes Earth. Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the saints that were previously caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture). Then both Heaven (Hab. 2:20) and Earth (Rev. 8:1) are silent while the judge is being seated.

At this Judgment Seat of Christ, both believers in Heaven and unbelievers on Earth are judged. Rev. 11:18 says, "the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." The saints in Heaven receive rewards. The unbelievers left on Earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief, the 7 trumpet judgments.

All Israel will be saved in a day, that first day of the millennial Day of the Lord (Isa. 66:8). However, these accept Christ too late to make the Rapture. They must be refined in the fire "as silver is refined" and as "gold is tried." Zech. 13:8-14:3 says regarding that 1st day of the Millennium, when Christ purges his kingdom, " it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and THEY SHALL SAY, THE LORD IS MY GOD. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh (1st day of the Millennium), and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather ALL NATIONS (UN or OWG army, led by Gog, Eze. 38) against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle." Israel will not go unpunished, but she will be saved from annihilation by the Sword of the LORD.

This was prefigured by Judges 7:18. It says, "When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The SWORD OF THE LORD, and of Gideon." What happened that day is prefigured differently in Judges 7:13,14. It says, "when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told a dream unto his fellow, and said, Behold, I dreamed a dream, and, lo, a cake of barley bread tumbled into the host of Midian, and came unto a tent, and smote it that it fell, and overturned it, that the tent lay along. And his fellow answered and said, This is nothing else save the sword of Gideon the son of Joash, a man of Israel: for into his hand hath God delivered Midian, and all the host." The cake of barley bread represents the mountain burning with fire that will fall in the Mediterranean Sea on the 1st day of the Millennium (Rev. 8:8).

Jer. 25:29 says, "For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I WILL CALL FOR A SWORD UPON ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH, saith the LORD of hosts." Agape

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