Pro and Con 822

Posted 10-19-01

My reply

I agree with J.R., especially that our departure may be very near. Here are some of my thoughts.

> > "The righteous PERISHETH, and no one layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is TAKEN AWAY from the evil to come" (Isaiah 57:1).
> > ...the term for "perish" is the Hebrew ovad meaning simply "TO CAUSE TO DISAPPEAR." Out of 15 Hebrew words translated "perish," ovad is the only one that does not have a bloody connotation.

There are different ways of transliterating Hebrew words. Strong's and Young's Concordances have "abad" instead of "ovad." Job 11:20 (KJV) translates "abad" as "ESCAPE." It says, "the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall NOT ESCAPE, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost." Here we have in these two passages news of what will happen to the righteous (escape) and what will happen to the wicked (not escape)."

> > the term "taken away" is from the Hebrew asaph meaning "gathered up into a place of safety." It is a harvest word. Note that righteous people disappear and no one lays it to heart. No one understands what has really happened.

The word "biyn" translated "considering" means discerning or understanding, but it isn't exactly that they won't understand what has happened, but that they won't understand that "the righteous is taken away (acaph, gathered, removed, lifted up, evacuated) FROM the evil to come." They are kept FROM the Tribulation, as in Rev. 3:10). Psa. 40:1-3 shows that some will see the Rapture happen. It says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (came down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (out of the Earth, as when Jeremiah was pulled up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

> > "The GOOD MAN is PERISHED OUT OF THE EARTH: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net" (Micah 7:2).
> > Again, the term ovad, here translated "perish." Note, however, that "the good man," a term used for saints, has disappeared "out of the earth." We have left the planet! The Commentary on the Old Testament by Keil and Deleitch describes it as "... to have disappeared ... not out of the land, but, as the parallel shows, from the earth, out of the world."

I like that "out of the earth." That sure makes it plain. The verse before that, Mic. 7:1, says, "Woe is me! for I am as (symbolic language, he is cast as a foolish virgin, left behind at the firstfruit Rapture) when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit."

The vintage is in the latter part of Elul and Tishri in the lowlands. Plowing and sowing begin In Tishri as soon as rain softens the soil. Unger's Bible Handbook has for Cheshvan, "WHEAT and barley sown; vintage in northern Palestine; rice harvest; FIG TREE LADEN WITH FRUIT; orange and citron blossom; almost all vegetation has disappeared." For sure the actual wheat harvest is over when seedtime comes. What do you make of the fig trees laden with fruit this time of year?

Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 3, 2001) is when Noah entered the Ark and the Lord closed the door (Gen. 7:16). Noah's harvest was all gathered in, plus, all the people were married, suggesting the Bride group. The animals came in two by two. The water increased for 40 days, so I counted 40 days from Cheshvan 17 and got a surprise--not that it matters. The 40th day is my birthday, Dec. 13. That's the 4th day of Hanukkah. This 40-day period has 3 possible dates that the Rapture might fall on, Cheshvan 17/Nov. 3 (Noah went in the Ark and the Lord closed the door), Cheshvan 27/Nov. 13 (when Noah came out of the Ark) and Kislev 25/Dec. 10 (Hanukkah/Festival of Lights, dedication of the altar). Any one of them would be before the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 would start on Dec. 19--if I have the date of the 2nd Advent right, Apr. 6, 2008/Nisan 1, 5768. That's the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year.

If that works out correctly, the confirmation of the covenant would be on Dec. 19. We should be gone before that covenant is confirmed. Keep watching. Agape

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From: Finland
Re: Dan9:27 "with many"
If i remember correctly, didnt arabs just recently say that they want UN to handle this palestina and mideast thing?..Anyway, for the antichrist, the stage has truly been set. See you soon & agape

My reply

Arafat wants UN observers sent in to keep Israel from responding to his terror attacks. Israel doesn't want them, and that is understandable. I don't want them here, either. However, the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 comes out of the nations and is given power over all nations. Like it or not, the UN or OWG will put the Beast in full power.

That is when the Tribulation really begins. We will be in Heaven by that time, because the Beast will "blaspheme...THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN" (Rev. 13:6). We are in Heaven then. Praise the Lord.

Rev. 17:14 speaks of us too. It says, "they that are with him (Christ) are called, and chosen, and faithful." That is at the same time that the 6th head "IS" in power (v. 10).

We must watch, and I am glad to watch. It is easy to see the finger of God ticking everything into place. The Rapture seems very close. Agape

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Re: Bless Israel?
I wonder If our lack of support for Israel has anything to do with the destruction of the Twin Towers? God is very jeolous for His Chosen People.

"Bush, Powell Back Israel Land Giveaway On May 22, 2001, United States President George W. Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell publicly endorsed the Mitchell Plan, which calls for settlement (covenant) land to be relinquished in exchange for peace." MARANATHA!

My reply

Judgment will come because of parting the land of Israel. Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and PARTED MY LAND." However, what is prophesied will come true. The land will be parted. It is not good, but it will come.

The basic fault seems to be Israel's. Their strength is to sit still and trust in the Lord to give them the land he promised them. Instead, they try to do everything in their own strength, and that is not enough. Isa. 30:7-9 says, "the Egyptians shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, THEIR STRENGTH IS TO SIT STILL. Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD." Maranatha and agape

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From: Mark Rouleau. Re: There are Three (3) last day Witnesses

Marilyn wrote: he will send them 2 Israeli prophets

Are there only two last day witnesses? We all know of the two last day witnesses in Revelation that preach in Jerusalem and are killed by the beast to rise and ascend into heaven. These two witnesses are not around for the complete fulfillment of the apocalypse. They ascend into heaven before all is fulfilled. These two witnesses were discussed in the Old Testament in Zechariah 4 as the anointed ones. In fact the book of Malachi tells us that Elijah is to be a last day witness. The other witness from Revelation and Zechariah is not named although many believe that he is Moses. However, the Old Testament books of Isaiah and Ezekiel clearly state that David is to be a witness in the last days however, Psalm 89 seems to indicate that he will not be harmed by the beast, thus raising the issue of David being a third last day witness that will not be harmed but will continue to rule in Jerusalem during the millenium. In following this it is useful to understand that the phrase “Holy One” is referring to Yeshua ha massiach (Jesus Christ). Please follow me:

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

It is clear that these two last day witnesses will be gone before all of the apocalypse has concluded. Their reference is clear from Zechariah 4 where the two olive trees being the two anointed ones are clearly

Zechariah 4
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. 4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. 8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. 10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth. 11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

In Malachi 4 the LORD tells us that Elijah will return before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. Of course if he is one of the Revelation prophets this means that he will come before the day of the LORD and leave before the Apocalypse.

Malachi 4
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Please note that Hosea was written after the time that David had passed from this mortal realm. In Hosea 3 we are told that in the later days when the children of Israel return they will not only seek the LORD their God but also seek David their king.

Hosea 3
1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine. 2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley: 3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Please recall that Isaiah as with Hosea was written after the time that David had passed from this mortal realm. Here in Isaiah 55 we see that the LORD has given David as a witness to the people. Follow the language about a nation that thou knowest not and nations that knew not thee. This is talking about a future tense. Nations that were not in existence in Isaiah’s days.

Isaiah 55
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Here in Psalm 71 David prophesizes that he will be brought up from the depths of the earth so that he can show the strength of the LORD to every one that is to come. This clearly shows that he is to be a witness after he is brought from the depths of the earth.

Psalm 71
18 Now also when I am old and greyheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come. 19 Thy righteousness also, O God, is very high, who hast done great things: O God, who is like unto thee! 20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

This is again reiterated in Psalm 139 where David states: 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

We are again told in Acts 2 that in the last days David’s soul shall not be left in hell and the Yeshua’s flesh will not see corruption. We are told that “David is not ascended into the heavens until the LORD’s foes are made his footstool. Of course if David is to witness and to rule over Israel in the last days he must be brought up again fro the depts. of the earth, where he was made in secret in the lowest parts of the earth prior to the Great and Dreadful day of the LORD. What is the purpose of witnessing (or can one even witness) after every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed?

Acts 2
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Here again we are told that when the children of Israel (Jacob) are gathered from among the heathen (gentiles) and are brought into their own land, David will be king over them. At present they have no king. This is the only part of this prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled. Note the issue with respect to the Golan Heights (the mountains of Israel).

Ezekiel 37
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

The clincher is that in Psalm 89 we learn that the enemy of the LORD will not exact upon David not will he afflict him unlike the other witnesses who are exacted upon and afflicted by the beast.

Psalm 89
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

Combine this with the fact that the witnesses from Revelations are not to remain until the enemies of the LORD are made his footstool it is reasonable to conclude that there are three last day prophets one of which will rule Israel and will not die in the Great and Dreadful Day of the LORD. Agape

My reply

> > 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

These 2 are Moses and Elijah for they stood by Christ, "the LORD (YHVH) of the whole earth," at the Transfiguration (Mt. 17:1-9).

> > In Hosea 3 we are told that in the later days when the children of Israel return they will not only seek the LORD their God but also seek David their king.

As I understand it, David will return with us as we follow Christ's at the Second Advent (Rev. 19:14). After that, he will rule as a prince under Christ the King of kings. Jer 30:7-9 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble (probably Tishri 1, 5768/Sept. 13, 2007, Day of God's Wrath); but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and DAVID THEIR KING, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM (probably Nisan 1, 5768/Apr. 6, 2008). Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."

Eze 34:23,24 says, "I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD (YHVH) will be their God, and my servant DAVID A PRINCE AMONG THEM; I the LORD have spoken it."

> > 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

This refers to Christ, the "Holy One," as you quoted: > > 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

> > Combine this with the fact that the witnesses from Revelations are not to remain until the enemies of the LORD are made his footstool it is reasonable to conclude that there are three last day prophets one of which will rule Israel and will not die in the Great and Dreadful Day of the LORD.

The Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 rules the first 1260 days of the Tribulation. The Satan-possessed False Prophet rules during the shortened Great Tribulation. After the Day of God's Wrath deposes the False Prophet, Satan will operate on his own as the "eighth" of Rev. 17:11. After Christ and his army return, the Tabernacle of David will be raised up.
Act 15:16 says, "After this I WILL RETURN, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up." Agape

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Updated 10-19-01