Pro and Con 824

Posted 10-25-01

Best up-to-date news:
Headlines 10-24-01:
* Eleven Suspected Terrorist Activists Are Rounded up The Tanzim, Hamas and PFLP Detainees Include Two of Four-Man Hit Squad Who Assassinated Late Tourism Minister Rehavam Zeevi Last Wednesday
* Giant US C-17 Transports Continue to Land in Israel Wednesday with Military Supplies on Second Day of Airlift
* High War Alert on Israel’s Northern Frontier Following Monday’s Heavy Exchange in Shaaba Farms Sector

Articles: (more info than the titles suggest) "Bush Promises Pressure on… Arafat" "Beit Rima Operation Caps 7-Day IDF Sweep"

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Living in the Old City of Jerusalem I can tell you that the damage to the southern wall is totally visible and physical, as the pieces are falling each day." said Mr. Sullivan, a 25 year resident of Jerusalem.
Monumental Moslem Construction Work Damages South Temple Wall and Drives Cracks in Al Aqsa Mosque Walls

10-7-01 debkafiles - The small protrusion forming ominously in the 2000-year old Southern Wall of Temple Mount - just over the Second Temple's Triple Gate - together with spreading cracks in the fabric of the Al Aqsa Mosque which abuts that wall, are being reworked into fresh fuel for Yasser Arafat's bid to place himself and the Jerusalem shrines at the center of the international war against terrorism. In this way, he hopes to divert world attention from Osama Bin Laden and focus it on purported Israeli terrorism against Moslems.

DEBKAfile's Palestinian sources report that the September 11 terrorist assaults in New York and Washington left Arafat resentful, feeling that the world jihad's No.1 spot has been snatched from him by the ex-Saudi terrorist....

The Palestinian leader has now begun to hope that a catastrophe on the Haram might even be built up to outdo the impact of Bin Laden's assaults in the United States.

The Moslem builders are not yet done. Using forbidden heavy earthmoving equipment, they are now excavating a northerly channel on the Temple Plaza heading in the direction of the Dome of the Rock, whose gilt and blue faience façade dominate the Jerusalem skyline.

Breaking into the bedrock in this area, archeologists warn DEBKAfile, would also harm the gold-topped Dome, which sits on that rock. The damage to the Islamic sites comes on top of the destruction of unique relics and artifacts from Jewish Temple, Byzantine, Crusader and medieval times, that the Moslem builders smashed and dumped, in defiance of protests from scholars around the world and warnings from engineers. The Palestinian Mufti of Jerusalem and Sheikh Salah simply echoed Yasser Arafat's assertion that the Temple Mount, including the Western Wall, is a Moslem site and no Jewish Temples ever existed. Ergo no relics.

To make sure this was true, Salah's builders did what they could to obliterate every trace of an historic Jewish presence above and below the ground of Temple Mount.

But they forgot to take this into account: The Islamic structures were built on the early foundations of that presence and were supported by them. Therefore, by their acts of vandalism, the new Moslem builders have also wrought irreparable damage to sites holy to Islam.

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Re: Raptures
Thank you for your prompt response. Much appreciated, especially since i know you must be extremely busy. I have one more question. Two Raptures I now understand. But how many "resurrections" have there been - and would you add on the two Raptures to those? Thanks, loads. Yours in Christ.

My reply

Here is the way I understand it. There is a first resurrection (the resurrection of the just) and a last resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust). Act 24:15 says, "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Mankind is either IN ADAM (the unjust) or IN CHRIST (the just). The first resurrection (those in Christ) proceeds in ranks. I Cor. 15:23 says, "as IN ADAM all die (the resurrection of the unjust and the second death is at the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium), even so IN CHRIST shall all be made alive (and rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ on the first day of the Millennium). But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." This resurrection started with Christ, includes the many that were raised from their graves on Resurrection Day (Mt. 27:52,53), the 1st Rapture before the Tribulation, and the 2nd Rapture at the beginning of the Millennium.

The First Resurrection is completed at the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord before the Judgment Seat of Christ convenes. Rev. 20:4-6 says, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

It is the Body of Christ that is resurrected in the First Resurrection. The head is raised first. Col. 1:18,19 says that Christ "is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell." It seems that the main part of the Body of Christ represents the dead in Christ, one foot represents the living church saints born into a new world at the Pre-Trib Rapture, and the other foot represents the living Tribulation saints born into a new world in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

The Old Testament saints that were not raised up as the sheaf of the firstfruits after Christ, the seed, was resurrected are raised up with the Church saints, or possibly the Tribulation saints if they were like the Laodiceans. Heb 11:40 says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." Dan. 12:1-3 says, "at that time (when the False Prophet is at his end, i.e., the Day of God's Wrath, first day of the Millennium) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (day of Jacob's trouble), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people (Jews, i.e., the 144,000 of Rev. 7) shall be delivered (malat, ESCAPE, LEAP OUT, i.e., at the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath), every one that shall be found written in the book (i.e., those IN CHRIST). And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (be resurrected), some to everlasting life (resurrection of the just), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (resurrection of the unjust). And they that be WISE (i.e., wise virgins) shall shine as the brightness of the firmament (expanse of space); and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

The wise have an extra supply of oil of the Holy Spirit for their lamps. How do they get it? Use I John 1:9, confess known sins and God will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Then follow Peter's list; In II Peter 1:3-11, he said, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins (when he accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance (the Pre-Trib Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Agape

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Re: translation
I believe that God has promised to preserve His Word for all generations. Jesus said, "my WORDS will never pass away." It seems that He was saying we would always have His words. We must have a final authority. Picking and choosing translations makes us the authority. If there are mistakes in the KJV, then it cannot be trusted. I believe, regardless of what scholars say (professing themselves wise), that we have an error free Bible in the KJV. The so called older manuscripts from which the revised version came were older pieces of paper but not older text. We have copies of Mark 16, for instance, which predate the perverted aleph and b manuscripts. These removed verses were quoted by church fathers in their correspondance with fellow christians. At any rate, if God has not preserved His word perfectly somewhere in the English language, we are in dire straits. ---in boise

My reply

I have my eyes wide open and am careful to glean the good from what has been made available to me. I realize that no translation is as perfect as the original document, but I have a choice to make. Will I let that keep me from reading a translation, or not? Knowing that I cannot read more than a few words in the originals at all, my choice is to read as many translations as I can, comparing one with the other. A few human errors that have crept into a translation done by men do not do away with the bulk of the Bible's teachings. We shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I wouldn't want the Lord to say to me, Why didn't you read what was available to you?" I use Green's Interlinear to see the original words, Strong's and Young's concordances, plus Thayer's and Gesenius' Lexicons.

If you would like to compare several versions on your own computer, you can DL e-sword--free:

If you would like to compare several version online, you can go to:¬used=0

Using just those 2 resources, I found out quickly which translations have day of the Lord in II Thess. 2:2 and which have day of Christ. They can't all be right, and they can't all be wrong.

These have day of the Lord: RSV, ASV, BBE, Darby, Weymouth, ISV, NAB, and WNT.

These have day of Christ: KJV, Webster, YLT, LITV, WEB (World English Bible).

Eight against five. We have to make a choice. Reading the passage and comparing it to the bulk of Scripture shows me that only the day of the Lord fits. The day of Christ is the Rapture, called the day of the Son of man in Luke 17:22,26. The day of the Lord is the Millennium. It will not come until after the Satan-possessed False Prophet is revealed.

In Isa. 53:9, the KJV has "he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death." The copper Isaiah scroll found in the Qumron cave has these turned around. I find that comparing these with the gospel accounts shows that truly, he made his grave with the rich and was with the wicked in his death.

Instead of being myopic, I have read every Bible version I can get my hands on. The bulk agree with each other. There are only a few places where there are differences, and those can be ironed out by comparing one with the others and with the rest of Scripture. God has seen to it that we have the materials at hand to understand his Word and the Holy Spirit to help us understand. Agape

His reply

Re: translation
It seems you do not believe in Divine Preservation. If it were divine it would have to be perfect. Does God preserve or men?

My reply

The Lord is omnipotent. He preserves what he wants to and vice versa. I don't limit him in any way. I have noticed, however, that in every Bible version I have read, more than 18, the story of salvation comes through loud and clear. However, none of them make Ezekiel's visions in Chapter 1 and 10 clear. Do you know why? I think it is because the translators didn't understand those visions themselves. It took me over 7 years of constant reading of books from the Seminary Collection at BIOLA library to try to figure out what they pictured. That didn't work. To do it, I prayed for the Lord to show me, and started looking up every word in Strong's Concordance. Finally, I got the breakthrough I was after. Now, I can see how the translation made it even harder to understand than it was in Hebrew. Many Hebrew words have more than one meaning. Not knowing what it meant, the translators made some choices that almost obscured the meaning for me. For instance, "adam" can mean "man" or "red clay." They picked "man" when "red clay" would have made more sense to me.

I do not believe in King James only, although I use it as my main study Bible. It is not perfect, but very reliable. I think the original manuscripts were perfect, but the translations are not. There are some things that the original says that can't be carried over as well in another language. Translators struggle with these. In such cases, they have to do the best they can to express the intent. Vowel pointing and division into chapter and verse have been added along the way.

Dr. Tabor is translating for the Original Bible Project. Certain passages are not easy. He has consulted with others, sent out sample portions of his preliminary draft to get their input, leaned over backwards to try to get the best translation possible. Yet, he has marked some passages with a star. " * Indicates difficult passage of uncertain translation." He puts footnotes in to explain when variations are possible, or when explanations can make the sense clearer.

Here is an example of a difficult passage. Gen. 4:1 in the KJV says, "Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD." Dr. Tabor translated it as: "the man knew his wife Eve; and she conceived, and bore Cain (Qayin) and she said. "*I have gotten (qanan) a man ('Ish) by YHVH." In the footnote, he said, "Or, with the help of YHVH, see I Chron 2:18. Less likely, "I have gotten a man [namely] YHVH." There is some difference, I'd say. Green's Interlinear has this under the Hebrew words, "I have gotten a man (with the help) of Jehovah." I think Dr. Tabor got the true meaning in the simplest way possible.

From what little I know of Hebrew, it seems in keeping with the way certain words are omitted, but are to be supplied by the reader. One instance I know of is hayah, to be, in various forms. When it is used, as in Gen. 1:2, it is properly translated "became," because the use of hayah denotes a change. When it is omitted and is to be supplied by the reader, the proper translation is "was," and there is no change. We have both in Gen. 1:2. I think it means that the earth BECAME without form, and void; and darkness WAS upon the face of the deep." In the first instance, there is a change, in the second, there is no change. Dr. Tabor stuck with "was" and "was"...but added the footnote, "Or possibly became." That told the truth, but kept him on neutral ground. I feel certain that he didn't want to spark a heated debate. He simply presented both sides. Let the reader make up his own mind.

In the next footnote, concerning "desolate and waste," Dr. Tabor wrote, "tohu and bohu. The two words are similar, when used in combination their meaning is intensified, compare Jer 4:23; Isa 34:11; and 45:18. The idea is that our planet earth was once in the condition of our Moon, or the planets Mars and Venus--a vast, chaotic, empty, wasteland with no life."

Here is an example of explanatory footnotes. Gen. 1:6 in the KJV says, "God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters." Dr. Tabor translated it, "ELOHIM said, "Let there be an EXPANSE in the middle of the waters." His footnote says, "Hebrew rakiah, which mean a space or expansion, from the verb "to spread out" (Job 37:18). Here it refers to the "firmament" or visible sky, which we call the atmosphere. From our earthly vantage point it appears as the backdrop for the stars (see Psa 19:1; Dan 13:3)." (emphasis mine)

Translating requires hard choices at times. Lord, I pray for translators, help them to make wise choices, so we can understand all that you want us to understand. In Jesus' name, Amen. Agape

Incoming email

Re: The Pope
It does not surprise me that the Pope is calling for peace and cooperation among religions so that war does not happen due to a difference of religious beliefs. He supports Islam in that the true Islamic religion does not call for war (people argue about that.) Nothing he says matters to me as I think he is too frail to lead any combination of religions. The report today is he was scheduled to speak today but was so weak he couldn't. I believe others are writing his speeches but he believes what what they write. In other words I think someone else is running the show. I cannot believe he is strong enough to lead a world government or world religion. I think he will die soon and the next Pope will be the one to fulfill Revelation.

This is another "How could that possibly happen?" What could possibly pull all religions together? Exactly what has now happened. People in the US, London, etc. were attacking mosques. This has started the push to "be tolerant" of all religions and did not originate with the Pope. President Bush asked for the US to be tolerant and he supported the true Islamic religion to be a religion of peace. All religions are calling for unity so that people of one religion do not attack another group. Did you see the prayer service in New York Sunday? Almost every religion known to mankind were together. That was not the Pope's doing. This is a world wide effort to be tolerant and embrace all religions and it started immediately after the attack on the towers.

There is now a reason to bring all religions together - to avoid war igniting all over the world. It's not just the Pope, it's every religious/political leader in the world. That's why it will happen. Amazing.

My reply

Some events sure can change things from that time on. You may be right, it could be another Pope, but I think he will not be very young. Isa 9:14,15 says, "Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head (6th head of the great red dragon of Rev. 12:3,4; 17:10) and tail (Satan himself, in the 7th head, the False Prophet), branch and rush, in one day. The ANCIENT AND HONOURABLE, HE IS THE HEAD; AND THE PROPHET THAT TEACHETH LIES, HE IS THE TAIL" (of the great red dragon).

When the Rapture happens, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and ONE IS (the 6th), and the other (the 7th) IS NOT YET COME; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (the Great Tribulation) (Rev. 17:10). The Rapture has happened, for "they that ARE with him (Christ) ARE called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:15). The Beast "blasphemes his name (God's), and his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN." That's the group I want to be in. I know you do too.

It is pretty definite that when the Rapture takes place, the False Prophet "IS NOT YET COME." That shows me that the "falling away first" has to be the Rapture before "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" in II Thess. 2:3. Don't you wonder why that seems so hard for some people to see?

Dan. 9:27 (LITV) says, "he (the False Prophet) shall confirm (strengthen) a covenant with the many (maybe the UN) for one week (of years). (That comes at the beginning of the week of years, the Tribulation) And in the middle of the week he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease (that's when he sits in the temple 'shewing himself that he is God,' II Thess. 2:4). And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator" (the Satan-possessed False Prophet, the tail).

Just as there is a first "beast" Rev. 13:4) on the scene at the beginning of the Tribulation and then "another" beast (Rev. 13:11) that will be deposed on the Day of God's Wrath, there are two voices calling the saints up to Heaven, the "first voice" and "another voice. At the Pre-Trib Rapture, "The FIRST VOICE" FROM HEAVEN SAYS, "COME UP HITHER" (Rev. 4:1). It is the FIRST "TRUMP OF GOD" (I Thess. 4:16). In the Preview of the Rapture, John said, II was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet" (Rev. 1:10).

Before the wrath of God can be poured out on the desolator, another Rapture will take place. Rev 18:4 describes the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It says, "I heard ANOTHER VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING, COME OUT OF HER, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." This is the "LAST TRUMP" OF GOD (I Cor. 15:51,52). Agape

Incoming email


My reply

I just don't worry about threats that something might happen. It might not too. We live in earthquake country, and I don't worry about that. If I need to do something sensible to protect us, like having insurance, a smoke alarm, candles, matches, flashlight, batteries, canned goods and some bottled water, just in case, I get them, then forget it. If one worries about this or that happening, they might live through things a hundred times in their mind before actually having to go through it once. Or maybe they worried over nothing. Maybe it won't happen at all, but they are miserable anyway.

When something hits us, I pray and then deal with it, doing whatever is necessary, say to myself, "What next?" and go on walking the Christian walk, one step at a time. I don't live in fear. I can only die once. If it happens, it happens. I'll be with the Lord. If it doesn't, life goes on here awhile longer in as normal a way as possible under the circumstances.

Scare tactics don't work with me. I might wonder what ulterior motive was behind such tactics, but I don't worry about it. After all, the Lord is in complete control. Sometimes, I think, "Boy, I'd hate to be in his (Arafat's, Bin Laden's, etc.) shoes at the Judgment," shake my head and dive right back into all the things that make up our normal daily life. Jesus said to occupy until he comes. That I'm trying to do to the best of my ability. Agape

Incoming email

I offer to you the following website as a further explanation of how current events and bible prophecy go hand in hand. I have heard the author, Gary Kah, speak a few times and he presents facts and paper documentation of those facts. There have been threats on his life due to his work. He was a formerly member of the Council on Foreign Relations and has spent the majority of his life studying and exposing the Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, the Vatican and other groups that are working toward a one world government and religion. He is a born again Christian and for me, his writings pull Scripture and current events together and help me to understand what is really happening. Between his writings and others who are watching end time events, it seems to me that the name of Gorbachev keeps coming up as a behind the scenes "mover and shaker". In the articles I read, his name keeps coming up as the one who is pushing a one world religion along side of the Pope. I don't know how that fits in prophecy, but it seems likely that Gorbachev is in satan's pocket and will continue to further the one world religion unstopped as there is very little media attention given to him.

This is the website, the article I am most referring to is called "America's Wake-up Call"
God bless you

My reply

Thanks. As I understand it, Gorbachev suggested that the world be divided into 10 regions at a meeting in San Francisco. He wanted to head up the one that included Russia. The job of dividing the world into 10 regions was given to Gorbachev, which he did.

The following was on The Cutting Edge Ministries: ...the New World Order Plan has divided the world into 10 Super Nations, and has nearly completed the reorganization. Briefly, the entire world has been reorganized into 10 Super Nations, as listed below:

l. North America
2. Western Europe
3. Japan
4. Australia, South Africa, and the rest of the market-economy of the developed world
5. Eastern Europe, including Russia
6. Latin America
7. North Africa and the Middle East
8. Tropical Africa
9. South and Southeast Asia
10. China

It was in the book "Mankind At The Turning Point."
To me, there are strange divisions. It seems based on "market-economy," not size. However, thinking of size on a world map, it still seems strange that 5 includes Eastern Europe and Russia, but 10 is just China. And Gorbachev wants to head up the former? Also think of the difference in size of 1 North America and 3 Japan. And where is South America? Are they grouped with 6 Latin America or 4 "the rest of the market-economy of the developed world"?

When the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, there "are TEN KINGS, which have received NO kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with THE BEAST" (Rev. 17:12). Which beast is this talking about? Verse 11 answers, "THE BEAST (Satan) that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven (controls the 7 kings), and goeth into perdition (the 7th, the False Prophet and later the bottomless pit)." Verse 8 also answers, It says, "THE BEAST that thou sawest was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now); and shall ascend OUT OF (ek, as in Rev. 3:10) the bottomless pit, and go into perdition (1st into the False Prophet, son of perdition, and then back to the bottomless pit): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), and yet is" (exists).

Only two men are called the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet. Satan actually enters into both. John 17:12 says, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the SON OF PERDITION (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled." 2Th 2:3 says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Day of the Lord, the Millennium) shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, the Pre-Trib Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (after the Rapture), the son of SON OF PERDITION" (the False Prophet). Agape

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Updated 10-25-01