Pro and Con 847

Posted 12-16-01

Vatican Says No Peace Until Israel Quits Territories, By Philip Pullella;jsessionid=4XKJN3VE5OTIKCRBAELCFEYKEEARKIWD?type=worldnews&StoryID=453134
12-13-01 VATICAN CITY - The Vatican said Thursday peace between Israelis and Palestinians would never be possible until the Jewish state withdrew from the occupied territories and a Palestinian state was born....

My Note

As the Tribulation begins, the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 comes in as a man of the cloth (toxon, fabric, bow), i.e., a religious leader, riding on a white horse as a prince of peace (Rev. 6:2). Will it be this Pope or the next one? Whoever he is, he will be given power "over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations", and people will say, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev. 13:4,7).

We know the land will be divided for Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

Incoming email

Dear Jim and Marilyn
Yesterday, Friday, December 14, my mother, Jean Kincaid slipped into a coma. She passed away just hours later, at 9:30p.m. EST, at her home in Hatley, Mississippi. She was 64. Her greatest desire was to be alive and "caught up" to meet Jesus at the Rapture; she's now with Him, waiting for a glorious bodily resurrection with the dead in Christ. Although her body was devastated by the effects of diabetes --renal failure, pancreas failure, heart failure, slurred speech and poor vision due to multiple strokes, she prayed daily for the salvation or spiritual well-being of those she loved. As late as Tuesday night, she was praying for family members struggling with the untimely death of her young nephew.

I always knew her to be a zealous, dedicated servant who witnessed to anyone who crossed her path, no matter what ethnicity, gender, or religious inclination. She led street meetings and passed out tracts on the Ohio State University campus during the '70s. She traveled to preach in churches in rural Appalachia--with her two small daughters in the back seat of a VW--and was sometimes turned away because she was a "woman preacher." When she was rebuffed, she just "shook the dust" from her feet and went on. In the '70s, she traveled throughout Europe, the Iron-Block countries and the Middle East, meeting people along the way, and sharing the Gospel when led by the Holy Spirit. When the web became popular, she leaped at the opportunity to reach more people, and the Virtual Church website was born. I believe there will be many in Heaven because of her testimony and prayers.

Jean retired from her medical practice three years ago. In addition to her medical degree, she had a doctorate and a law degree. She was a registered nurse and tenured professor. With all her education and service to mankind, she knew that the only work that counted was what she did for Jesus.

In her last days, and as her strength allowed her, she was a loyal, silent visitor to Marilyn's Bible Prophecy Corner and the Five Doves websites. She read every e-mail from Jim Bramlett as soon as it arrived and often forwarded it on to as many as she could before her typing fingers gave out. Her lack of stamina prevented her from corresponding as she wished, but please know that she was there, praying for you and your ministries.

In Christ, Karen Kincaid Geffert

Incoming email

From: Jim Bramlett This is a tribute to retired medical doctor Jean Kincaid, an e-mail friend who just went to be with the Lord. I knew she was not well but had no idea it was so serious. Her brother tells me it was a combination of diabetes and kidney failure.

Most of you probably did not know Jean, but she was a dear sister in Christ and a great woman. She was brilliant, with an I.Q. so high that it that qualified her for Mensa, the exclusive group of geniuses. After she already had a Ph.D. in business and was the department head at a major state university, Jean's surgeon husband talked her into going to medical school, which she did, becoming a medical doctor, a profession she pursued the latter part of her life.

Jean's late father was a Pentecostal minister and from what she told me he was truly a giant of the faith. Jean herself was a giant of the faith and was Pentecostal to the bone. She was also very knowledgeable of Scripture. With her brother, John, and daughter, Karen, Jean provided a very creative Web site called Virtual Church, which is at

Jean was an inspiration to many. We will greatly miss her. But she is basking in the glory of her risen Savior and experiencing indescribable joy and peace right now. She just got there a little sooner than the rest of us, and I believe we will meet her in the air very soon. Jean would agree!

Thank God for Jean Kincaid and her faith and commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ.

My reply

Amen. She is a dear friend. I never met her personally, but we corresponded by e-mail. She said that she told her doctor she wasn't going to have dialysis, that she wasn't afraid to die. Her faith in Christ was strong, and her hopes are now confirmed. At this point, she is better off than we are, but it looks like we will be joining her soon.

Incoming email

Re: Promises Remain
I wanted to encourage you with a personal note. Let me issue a disclaimer before I briefly tell the story...this may be an extreme co-incidence (although I doubt it), the Lord may well be doing something different...beyond the limits of my finite understanding (often the case!)...however, you may remember earlier in the fall this incident:

My husband and I were going for an evening drive in the country. It had been a day of particularly keen longing for the Lord's return and as we set off for the drive, my prayer was :" Lord, if You are returning THIS fall, please let me see a deer on this drive." It was an intense prayer but not a complicated one.

We drove over an hour in the countryside near dusk...not one scene of ANY form of wildlife did we see (except one bat). We were within half a mile of home when I said to the Lord, "It's o.k. I have no right to place such requests before you. You are sovereign and I submit to your sovereignty."

Within two blocks of our drive way, out from the edge of our newly developed hillside jumped a doe and fat little fawn and crossed in front of us. With great joy, I told my husband of the prayer.

This in and of itself could be a co-incidence, however, I had not seen deer in our area for two years. Moreover, the next day my prophecy-partner-daughter called to say that she had had the oddest dream. She dreamt that she was on a car ride and felt an intense desire to see a deer but none were to be found. Just as she was approaching our home, she said a doe and fat little fawn jumped out and crossed the road in front of her.

I knew then that the Lord had confirmed my request. Fall officially ends on Dec. 20th or 21st. I still submit to the Lord's infinite wisdom...however, I will be puzzled by this incident until He explains it, IF He has not called us by then. Agape and Still Waiting

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. The 19th is Wednesday. We will soon know one way or the other. Agape

Incoming email

The last trumpet is at the resurrection after the thousand years isn't it? Isn't that the rest of the dead which happens after the first resurrection in chapter 19?

My reply

The last trump of I Cor. 15:51,52 is heard at the 2nd Rapture, just before God's wrath falls on unbelievers left behind on Earth. His Wrath is the 7 trumpet judgments and the 7 bowls of his wrath. All 7 trumpet judgments strike Earth on one day, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. None are mentioned after that.

Neither the Pre-Trib nor the Pre-Wrath Rapture are in Rev. 19. Verse 2 says, "he hath judged the great whore." That is 7 months before the Second Advent in verses 11-16. After the Day of God's Wrath in Eze. 38:18-20, Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." He is glorified at the Second Advent. Agape

Incoming email

Happy Birthday Marilyn. What a blessing you have been for all of us. May God give you strength to continue. Better yet - I hope we have your party in heaven.

My reply

Thanks. No party. We just ate out, one evening with our daughter, another with our son, because he wasn't here when Carol dropped in. That is what I prefer. Good food and good company sound better to me than things.

Your mention of a party in heaven sounds like a good way to meet all the wonderful people I have corresponded with. That would be such a great blessing. Hope that materializes. Agape

Incoming e-mail

This is the latest teaching I have from my friend, Sal. Here he names Abdullah! Yes, there's much that is questionable in Sal's work; my relationship with him has been marked by a long amicable disagreement, but...upon occasion he does develop some startling insights. Agape

My reply

I don't see some things quite like Sal does, either.

> > there are seven years yet to come to fulfill the remainder of the events in the prophecy. Until that begins, we are in the gap period of the prophecy. (Dan.9:27) > > The prophecy demonstrating this gap period is found in Revelation, which is a record of the events that take place after the close of the gap period. (Rev.13 & 17)

I agree with the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel. I agree that Rev. 13 is the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. The Beast who is the 6th head of the great red dragon comes to full power as the Tribulation starts and rules 1260 days (Rev. 13:5).

However, I split hairs a bit on Rev. 17 being "after the close of the gap period." I think Rev. 17 depicts the time of the Rapture, which precedes the beginning of the Tribulation by a small interval of time. The 6th head is in power over the Roman Ecclesiastical Empire at the Rapture, but he has not yet been given the "crown" (Rev. 6:2) that he is to receive as the Tribulation begins.

In Rev. 12:3, the great red dragon has 7 heads and ten horns, "and seven crowns upon his heads. The False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18 is the 7th head. He comes to full power Mid-Trib. There are no crowns mentioned on the 10 horns, maybe because we are not to assume that they are crowned Mid-Trib.

Rev 13:1 says, "I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea (nations, Rev. 17:15), having seven heads (no crowns mentioned) and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy" (Pontifex Maximus). We have to be detectives and pick up on subtle clues. When The Beast rises, the 6th head is crowned. It is not until Mid-Trib that the 7th head is crowned. The words are carefully chosen so as to not mislead us. The 6th head and the 10 kings seem to be crowned as the 70th week of Dan. 9:27 begins.

Rev. 17:9-13 says, "here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains (world empires), on which the woman (Mystery Religion of Babylon) sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Babel, Babylon II, Media-Persia, Greece and Imperial Rome), and one is (Ecclesiastical Rome, headed by the Pope), and the other (False Prophet) is not yet come; and when he cometh (Mid-Trib), he must continue a short space (the Great Tribulation). And the beast (dragon, Satan) that was (in Judas Iscariot, son of perdition), and is not (in man at the time of the Rapture), even he (Satan) is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition (goes into the False Prophet, the only other son of perdition). And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received NO KINGDOM AS YET (at the time of the Rapture); but receive power as kings one hour WITH THE BEAST (of Rev. 13:2-10, the 6th head, that comes to full power as the Tribulation begins). These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto THE BEAST," as the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:1).

Rev. 17:14 shows that the Rapture has already taken place. It says, "they that ARE with him (Christ) are called ('Come up hither,' Rev. 4:1), and chosen (wise virgins), and faithful." Since the 10 kings have "no kingdom as yet" in Rev. 17:12, and they are crowned as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13:1, there is an interval of time between the Rapture and the time when the 6th head and the 10 kings are being crowned. This means that the Rapture precedes The Beast's riding forth as a prince of peace in Rev. 6:2.

Therefore, the Rapture takes place before the 70th week of Daniel 9:17 begins. It is close to the end of the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.

> > Two of the five had already come and gone by the time Daniel is prophesying, Egypt and Assyria. Then in Daniel we begin with number three, Babylon, four, Medo-Persia and number five, Grecia. (Dan.2)

> > Rome was ruling at the time John is writing, so Rome is number 6. Then, there is one yet to come, which would be number seven, and out of it would come the eighth and final kingdom.

I think the Roman Empire was the 5th that had fallen, (1) Babel, (2) Babylon II, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece and (5) Rome) and (6) Ecclesiastic Rome "is" when the Rapture takes place. The 1st empire upon which "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" sat was under Nimrod at Babylon I, the Tower of Babel. Babylon II was the Neo-Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar. Number (7), Babylon III, will be during the 70th week of Daniel. The king who is the "eighth" in Rev. 17:11 is Satan, the tail of the great red dragon. He possesses the False Prophet until he is deposed on the Day of God's Wrath. At that time, Satan comes out of him and operates on his own until chained for 1000 years. I wouldn't think of there being an 8th kingdom. Every wall worldwide has fallen. All is in shambles.

> > Here is another gap in time. Between the sixth and the seventh kingdoms on that land being described in Daniel, as the great image of Nebuchadnezzar.

I don't see a gap between Ecclesiastic Rome and Babylon III, or at any point in the legs, feet, or toes of the image Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream. The image was not separated at any point. There is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, but that has to do with God stopping the clock for Israel. The world empires depicted by the statue are Gentile.

> > History shows that the next Empire on that land, with it’s capital at Baghdad was the Moslem Empire. So, after Rome, and during the gap period, the feet kingdom follows the legs on that land, and out of the feet, the Moslem Empire, grow the toes, the eighth and final kingdom that is later described as Antichrist’s kingdom. Note that the toes do not grow out of the legs – Rome did not follow Rome in History on that land!

I don't think the Moslem Empire is the world empire depicted by the feet of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Ecclesiastic Rome grew out of the Roman Empire, and the Catholic (meaning Universal) Church went worldwide. There was even a Holy Roman Empire from 9th or 10th century AD to 1806. That name was a good clue.

> > The Hashemite Kingdom is passed as a hereditary kingdom from it’s founder through his heirs. The founder was Mohammed the Prophet of Allah, and his heirs are his descendants. Those descendents were the keepers of the holy shrines of the Moslems from the beginning.

> > So, through the centuries since the Hashemite Kingdom began, each person who becomes the Hashemite king carries down through time the legacy that ends at the time when he becomes the featured character in Daniels drama.

> > That is precisely why we began to watch the development of the Hashemite King on the stage of history twenty one years ago. If it was in our time that the end would come, we would see the events as they developed because we were standing on the trail left in history to that point on the path that had been laid out in the great image of Daniel’s prophecy. Now we would observe the stage of history from there forward and be witness to what happened from that viewpoint.

> > We knew that the prophecy of Daniel had been sealed by God to be seen only in it’s time.(Dan.12:4) Therefore in order for it to be the end time, we had to see the events of the prophecy taking place on the stage of history. So, the watch began when Egypt made peace with Israel, and strangely enough at the time, the catalyst to the peace was the Hashemite king!

> > Thus began the watch of this rising of the little horn of Daniel onto the stage of history. Would history prove it to be this Hashemite king, in his time? Only time would tell.

I thought the False Prophet would be a Jew. How else would the Jews accept him as their Messiah ben David? I can't see how a Hashemite king has anything to do with this.

> > Abdullah II, who became the Hashemite King (of Jordan).... The forty third direct descendant of the Prophet Mohammed to rule the Hashemite Kingdom.

Sal thinks Abdullah II is the little horn (a Hashemite king) who will subdue 3 horns (Iraq, Syria and Libya). I can't even see how three of the 10 horns could just be Iraq, Syria and Libya. I think the 10 kings head up the 10 regions this whole world has already been divided into.

Following are the 10 regions. Number 7 is North Africa and the Middle East. To me that could only be one of the three to be subdued.


l. North America
2. Western Europe
3. Japan
4. Australia, South Africa, and the rest of the market-economy of the developed world
5. Eastern Europe, including Russia
6. Latin America
7. North Africa and the Middle East
8. Tropical Africa
9. South and Southeast Asia
10. China


Incoming email

Hey, Marilyn, I agree with 99.9% of your analysis of the prophetic landscape, reserving only a small disagreement regarding the timing of Gog and Magog. Could Abdullah be THE AC? No way, but he most assuredly can be AN AC, leading Israel into a false peace preceding the 70th. week. 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Remember when the Jews were greeting King Hussein as "Prince of Peace"? Agape

My reply

Last first. I remember being shocked to hear him called "Prince of Peace." Christ is the Prince of Peace and the Prince of Princes. Isa 9:6 says, "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Dan 8:25 says, "through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

About many antichrists now, I sure agree.

Here are some of my reasons I think Gog's army attacks Israel on the Day of God's Wrath. When Gog's army attacks Israel is seen in Eze. 38:18-20. Verse 18 says that God's fury will come up in his face at the same time Gog's army attacks. Verse 19 mentions "the fire of my wrath." To me, that is the day of God's Wrath. To back that up, verse 20 tell of what happens on the Day of God's Wrath. There is the worldwide earthquake when "the mountains shall be thrown down." There will be hailstones, fire, and brimstone." All men will shake at "my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 and Rev. 6:14f. Referring to this sign, verse 23 says ,"I will be KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Eze. 39:4 says that Gog's forces will fall on the mountains of Israel. Verse 7 says, "So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I WILL NOT LET THEM POLLUTE MY HOLY NAME ANY MORE: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." If his name will not be polluted any more, it has to be the Day of God's Wrath. His name is polluted up to that time. The next verse, 8, says, "Behold, IT IS COME, AND IT IS DONE, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken." This day is called "that day" many places in the OT. It's the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Feast of Trumpets.

Zech. 14:1-3 says, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

That day of battle was Joshua's Long Day. More died from stones raining down on them than the Israelites killed. This time it will be Jesus' Long Day, but from the Hebrew, his name is also Joshua. This will be the final Joshua's Long Day, when the asteroids impact Earth. One will hit the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). That is why in Eze. 20, the fishes of the sea shake.

When the worldwide earthquake happens, Rev. 16:18-21 tells us more of what will take place. It says, "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

How do you see it differently? Agape

His reply

Whew! I don't know how you do it! I will respond with my take on Gog & Magog, but first I have to delve into my notes which are buried somewhere amongst six hard disks and three computers with a total capacity of 150 GB, which, believe it or not, are almost full. (I find my computers are a perfect reflection of my brain -- I know what I want is in there somewhere, but I can never find it when I need it :-) Maybe the trumpet will sound before I find it --- I hope, I hope, I hope.

I follow your reasoning with no problem and absolutely acknowledge its validity. However, more to follow in next installment. Agape

Incoming email

Re: 7 more years - Bob Schlenker
Noticed that Bob Schlenker "Open Scroll" is back on line. excerpted below. He now believes the rapture to be in 2008. Don't think I can last that long. In Him
excerpted from the Open Scroll:
Since 1994, I had eagerly anticipated the arrival of Passover 2001. . . .
I believe, as I have believed, that we are presently in the third year of the 858th Shmitah (week of years) from Creation. However, instead of this particular Shmitah being the "famine" week (a.k.a. the “watches in the night,”) I have come to believe we have one more “week” to go before my previous expectations will be fulfilled. On what basis? The span of weeks of years between the Spring of 2008 (which probably marks the anticipated Bride Theft event) and Creation numbers 858 5/14. This is the very span of weeks of days between the Spring of 2008 and the Fall of 1991, marked by the celestial sign of Genesis 49:10. Considering that the 365/1 ratio between the units of measure causes this relationship to change dramatically with a very slight shift in the endpoints, and in light of the other chronology studies on this site, this fact seems very significant! Of further interest, the extension of an Infinity Code (discovered by Al Neal) principle reveals the connection between a number, its meaning and the chapter of the Bible that, in sequence, corresponds with that number. These three weeks beginning in the Fall of 1991 are the 857th, 858th and 859th, correspond to Daniel Chapters 7, 8, and 9. It is in Daniel 9 that we find a most relevant revelation of the end!

Beginning with the time of the 1991 Yom Kippur/Genesis 49:10 celestial sign, these three weeks of years (3x7=21) are a set whose numbering is most appropriate. It makes sense that the fulfillment of the time of the end should span 21 years instead of 14. The number 21 has been the subject of much of my attention in the last year. I've learned it has the significance of the fullness of time. Given that the number 3 signifies resurrection, it is in the 3rd year-week in the third year-day that we should reasonably expect to find the “out” resurrection that has been so eagerly anticipated by the Bridegroom and those who are His. This third day in the third week is numbered as the 17th in the series of 21, the 17th being recognizable as the day of the month of our Lord's resurrection, and the day the Ark of salvation came to rest in a foreshadowing of the resurrection. (Genesis 8:4: and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.) These observations of the numeric significance are noteworthy.

My reply

Bob Schlenker and I do not see things alike. Looking at the events in Israel, I don't see how things can go on very long without the Rapture taking place.

From the ratification of the Oslo Accords in Israel on Tishri 1, 5754 (our Sept. 16,1993) to Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000) was 7 years. I figure those were like the 7 good years when Joseph was in Egypt. That would make the next 7 years the 7 bad years. Did the bad begin then?

The Palestinian's Tactic Intifada began in 1993. What they call the Second Intifada began 7 years later, on Sept. 29, 2000, Eve of the Feast of Trumpets. World events seem to confirm the start of the 7 bad years in 2000. All terrorist activity has been stepped up dramatically ever since. They can't get the 7-year covenant agreed upon because the Holy Spirit in us is restraining the appearing of the False Prophet until we are gone. At present, Israel has given up on Arafat, saying that they won't even negotiate with him.

The False Prophet is "the prince that will come" of Dan. 9:26 that will "confirm the covenant with many" as the 70th Week of Daniel 9:27 begins. We seem to be at the doorstep. Spring of 2008 does NOT seem to me to be the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

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