Pro and Con 850

Posted 12-24-01

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
who exactly is this Bartholomew person? What religion, is it Catholic? He seemed to be the main guy at that meeting. Also, do you know what the name, "Bartholomew" means? Perhaps there is a clue there.

I don't see how Pope John Paul can be the beast due to his poor health. I have read a couple of books in the past about the "in-fighting" in the Holy See. It is as political as any other large organization. Various men trying to best each other to get closer to and have more influence with the Pope. Pope John Paul is so sick he must have some men around him that are "helping" him in religious matters. The "Treasurer" of the See always has tremendous power. A "follow the money" situation.

We are past the 19th. What are your thoughts now on the timing/beginning of the tribulation? I believe you have nailed the timing of the tribulation and the mileposts along the way. Could it have begun on the 19th to fit the time pattern but the rapture comes sometime later but before the treaty is signed? Does the rapture have to happen before the beginning of the tribulation or must the treaty be signed before the tribulation can begin? Is there some fudge room between these two happenings? I know the rapture must happen before the signing but we are not at that point yet.

Arafat is being squeezed from all directions including the US. What was amazing to me is he said he would close down the various terrorist organization offices. Offices? Terrorist groups have their own out in the open offices? That is crazy. What do they do every day in these offices? Get together and give out assignments as to who will blow themselves and Israelis up? Does their sign read, "Hamas General Office in Charge of Blowing Up Israel." I thought these people were hiding somewhere carrying out their deadly attacks, but no, they have an office. Unbelievable. Love

My reply

Bartholomew means a son that suspends the waters. Since water is a symbol of the Holy Spirit, that just might be a clue. I know next to nothing about him, didn't know he existed until I read this article. I hope someone knows more about him and can fill me in.

For Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. to have offices must effectively demonstrate that Arafat is for what they are doing. They normally don't have to do it clandestinely.

> > Pope John Paul is so sick he must have some men around him that are "helping" him in religious matters.

I have read that he still takes care of his duties as Pope. He just rests a lot. Isa 9:15 says, "The ANCIENT AND HONOURABLE, he is the head (6th); and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail." The FP is both the 7th head of the great red dragon and the tail, because Satan (the tail) is in him. This Pope is looked upon as both ancient and honourable. Popes usually stay in office until they die.

> > We are past the 19th. What are your thoughts now on the timing/beginning of the tribulation? I believe you have nailed the timing of the tribulation and the mileposts along the way. Could it have begun on the 19th to fit the time pattern but the rapture comes sometime later but before the treaty is signed? Does the rapture have to happen before the beginning of the tribulation or must the treaty be signed before the tribulation can begin? Is there some fudge room between these two happenings?

I have been so busy with my computer that I haven't had time to think this through any more. Maybe that's why I had a problem, so I wouldn't have time to think about this. I better get to it. First, let's see if there is anything about the 2300 days in Dan. 8:13,14 that could be interpreted differently. We need to take a wide view, then a closeup. The answer may be in identifying THE END correctly.

In Rev. 13:11, the False Prophet is called ANOTHER beast. Let's see what Daniel has to say about ANOTHER.

In Dan. 7:7,8, the Roman Empire that is "diverse from all the beasts that were before it (i.e., it's the Roman Ecclesiastic Empire, with the Tribulation Pope probably the 6th head of the great red dragon) had "TEN HORNS (kings, Rev. 17:12) ...there came up among them ANOTHER little horn (the False Prophet), before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things" (because he is Satan possessed).

In Dan. 7:20, there are 10 horns, kings, that come out of the Roman Empire and "THE OTHER which came up (the False Prophet), and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things" (because he's Satan-Possessed).

In 7:23-27, "the fourth kingdom upon earth...shall be diverse from all kingdoms (because it is ecclesiastic instead of political), and shall devour the WHOLE EARTH, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces (10 regions). And the TEN HORNS out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he (the False Prophet) shall be diverse from the first (the Beast, 1st beast of Rev. 13:2-10 is not the same man as the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18), and he shall subdue three kings. And he (the FP) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3.5 years). But the JUDGMENT SHALL SIT (the Judgment Seat of Christ on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets), and they shall take away his (the False Prophet's) dominion (on Tishri 1), to consume and to destroy it unto THE END (of what, the 3.5 years, the 7 months of Eze. 39:13,14, or the end of Armageddon?). And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High (Christ), whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom."

Dan. 9:27 says, "he (the FP) shall confirm (gabor, strengthen) the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (i.e., after Moses and Elijah prophesy 1260 days) he (the FP) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (at the temple) to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he (the FP) shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until THE CONSUMMATION (kalah, full end, destruction), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (desolator).

In Dan. 8:9, we find "a little horn" coming out of the 4 kingdoms that Alexander's Grecian empire was divided into. Some think this represents Antiochus Epiphanes, but then they can't understand v. 10. Scofield's note says, "This passage (vs. 10-14) is confessedly THE MOST DIFFICULT IN PROPHECY, a difficulty increased by the present state of the text. Historically this was fulfilled in and by Antiochus Epiphanes, but in a more intense and final sense Antiochus but adumbrates the awful blasphemy of the 'little horn' of Dan. 7:8,24,25; 9:27; 11:36-45; 12:11. In Daniel 8:10-14 the actions of both 'little horns' blend."

Verse 22 mentions those 4 kingdoms. Then vs. 23-26 say, "in the latter time of their kingdom, WHEN THE TRANSGRESSORS ARE COME TO THE FULL (in the Tribulation), A KING (the FP) OF FIERCE COUNTENANCE, AND UNDERSTANDING DARK SENTENCES (because he is Satan possessed), SHALL STAND UP. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (by Satan's): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Christ); but he shall be broken without hand. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."

The vision of the evening and the morning refers back to v. 14: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days (lit., mornings and evenings); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Eze. 45:18,21 seems to indicate that the sanctuary will be cleansed on Nisan 1. It says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month (Nisan), in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary. However, since 12-19-01 was 2300 days before Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008), it may not refer to the particular END we are looking for.

It looks like the "little horn" of Dan. 8:9 is actually talking about the False Prophet, of whom Antiochus Epiphanes was a type. With this in mind, vs. 10-14 ('most difficult in prophecy') makes sense. Antiochus was not Satan possessed. The False Prophet will be Satan possessed. Satan is spoken of. Verses 10-14 say, "it (the great red dragon, i.e., Satan) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (the fallen angels) to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host (Christ), and by him (the Satan possessed FP) the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be THE VISION concerning the daily sacrifice (when the Jews can sacrifice), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days (Heb: evening, mornings); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Rev. 12:3,4 ties in. It says, "there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" (Mid-Trib). Satan (the tail) is in the 7th head, the False Prophet.

Gabriel was to "make this man to understand the vision." Daniel didn't understand some things, but this vision he understood. Let's look at Dan. 8:17-26.

First, Daniel fell on his face in a deep sleep (as John does in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:17). Gabriel told him that "at the time of THE END shall be the vision" and "touched me, and set me upright." That may indicate the resurrection at the 1st Rapture. After that, Gabriel expanded on his statement that the vision was for the time of the end. In v. 19, he said, "I will make thee know what shall be in THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION (zaam, froth at the mouth fury, especially of God's rage): for at the time appointed THE END shall be."

Again the 4 kingdoms (of Seleucus, Ptolemy, Cassandra and Lysimachus) are mentioned. This causes many to expect that the False Prophet will be a Jew from these 4 empires into which Alexander's empire was divided. They included Greece, Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt and the East.

Vs. 23,24 says, "in the latter time of their kingdom, WHEN THE TRANSGRESSORS ARE COME TO THE FULL" this Satan-possessed man will come and prosper. Vs. 25,26 say, "by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Christ); but he shall be broken without hand. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."

The Hebrew for "full" is tamam, to complete, cease. If this is when the Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire, THE END may refer to the end of Armageddon. Rev. 19:19-21 says, "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him (Christ) that sat on the horse, and against his army (all the saints, Zech. 14:5). And THE BEAST WAS TAKEN, AND WITH HIM THE FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

This is the full end of these two men's lifetimes on Earth. They are not released at the end of the Millennium when Satan is released for a short time. After he is free a short time, Rev. 20:10 says, "he was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

In Dan. 12:4, Daniel is to "seal the book, even to the time of THE END." In v. 6, "one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, HOW LONG shall it be to THE END of these wonders." Three numbers of days are then given that start when the abomination that maketh desolate is placed at the temple Mid-Trib, 1260, 1290 and 1335. The 1260 is the end of the full 7th week of Daniel 9:27. After that, there are 30 days added, then another 75 days, when Daniel is to stand in his allotted area in Israel.

We now know that the 2300 days do not start Dec. 19, which is 2300 days before Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008), when I think Christ will return. Therefore, what else could be the end point of the 2300 days?

Dan 9:24 says, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and TO SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY, and to anoint the most Holy." That suggests that the end of the 70th week of Daniel might be THE END. It would tie in with Dan. 8:19's "THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: for at the time appointed THE END shall be."

Dan. 12:7,11-13 says, "I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (3.5 years, 1260 days); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED (kalah, be an end, destroy utterly, accomplish, cease)."

The difference between 2300 and 2520 (1260 [Rev. 11:3] + 1260 [Rev. 12:6]) days is 220 days. Just to see when another 220 days would end, I got a surprise. Dec. 19, 2001 + 220 days = July 27, 2002. That is Av 8, the day before both earthly temple grounds were set fire on Av 9. The temple proper burned on Av 10.

Av 9 would be an appropriate day for the Tribulation to begin. Many things have happened to the Jews on that day to be sorrowful for. The spiritual temple would be gone. The altar for sacrificing could be built and sacrificing could begin at the earthly temple mount. Food for thought.

Here is something on the possible timing of the peace covenant.
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http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1009093893069&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154

...Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon dismissed Israeli media reports that his government supported a draft agreement under which Israel would recognize a Palestinian state within eight weeks, and negotiate the final borders and other details over the next year....

Meanwhile, according to a report today in the Yediot Aharonot and Maariv newspapers, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and Arafat confidant Ahmed Qureia had worked out a tentative agreement by which Israel would within eight weeks recognize a state in the West Bank and Gaza territories the Palestinian Authority now controls....

a Palestinian official, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that the plan was proposed by Peres verbally in ongoing talks with Qureia....

The report in Yediot Ahronot said that after the recognition of the Palestinian state, the sides would then open negotiations on the final borders. In addition, the issues of Palestinian refugees, Jerusalem, Jewish settlements and other major sticking points would be worked out within a year.

As part of the first phase of the agreement, the sides would implement a ceasefire agreement...

The agreement was worked out with the knowledge of Sharon and Arafat during two months of talks, the reports said.
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Abu Ala aide: Israel will accept state in 1967 borders
By Amira Hass and Yossi Verter
http://test.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=109360&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Israel will recognize a Palestinian state established on the 1967 borders under the plan hatched by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker Ahmed Queria (Abu Ala), a close aide to the Palestinian official told Ha'aretz yesterday. The source also confirmed the details of the plan as published by Yedioth Ahronoth yesterday.

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have you read this concerning the Rapture. This site believes that only a 144,000 will be raptured at pre trib. They are different from the 144,000 who minister during trib. What are your thoughts and do you have scripture that agrees with or not? If this is the case we are not going, at least the majority of us will not.
"SPIRITUAL EARTHQUAKE," by Lyn Mise http://www.prophecycountdown.com/cse/6.shtml

My reply

I think there is only one body of Israelites called the 144,000. They are probably numbered to show that they are part of the Bride of Christ, even though they are raptured with the other Tribulation saints that cannot be numbered (Rev. 7:9). Like the Pre-Trib saints (Rev. 5:9), the 144,000 sing the "new song."

Rev. 14:3-5 says, "they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were NOT DEFILED with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found NO GUILE: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."

Lyn Mise said:
> > The majority of Christians believe in the pre-tribulational theory of the Rapture. This theory states that ALL born-again believers will be taken in the Rapture, to be with the Lord, before the Tribulation period begins. Let's look at some of the major "fault-lines" in this widely accepted theory.
> > LAST TRUMPET
> > I Corinthians 15:51-52, are some of the main verses to show the pre-tribulational Rapture:
> > "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
> > First of all, notice that Paul says the dead will be raised and the living changed at the LAST TRUMPET. When does the Word of God say the last trumpet will sound?
> > The book of Revelation answers this question for us. There are seven angels whose job it will be, to sound seven trumpets. The angels begin in Revelation 8:6, and continue until the last one is sounded in Revelation 11. Notice the events surrounding the sounding of the seventh or LAST TRUMPET:
> > "The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." (Christ's reign of the world begins.)
> > "And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and HAVE BEGUN TO REIGN. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The TIME HAS COME for JUDGING the dead, and REWARDING your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name..." (Revelation 11:15-18)

Lyn Mise mistakes the "trump of God" of I Thess. 4:16 for the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52, then assumes that the "last trump" of God is the last of the 7 trumpet judgments sounded by angels, not God. I don't think that is correct. Since believers are promised to be kept from God's wrath, they cannot be on Earth until the 7th trumpet judgment hits Earth.

When one speaks of the first thing to happen, he doesn't need to say that it is the first in a series. However, when he speaks of the last in a series, he needs to indicate that it is the last. I Thess. 4:13-18 is the first "trump of God," sounded at the first Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture. I Cor. 15:51,52 is the "last trump," sounded at the last Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

There are three times that the trump of God is sounded. The first trump calls the main Bride group to Heaven. About 7 years later, this same trumpet is sounded again. It calls those taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn...in heaven" (Heb. 12:23) on the day of the 2nd Rapture. Of these Bride saints, Mt. 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

Next, the second trump calls the Tribulation saints to Heaven. Of these, the 144,000 are part of the Bride of Christ. It seems that the remainder are not Bride saints. Mk. 13:27 tells us about both Rapture groups being called to the general assembly in Heaven. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." Those coming from Earth are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

The prototype is in Nu. 10:1-4. The "LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM (both) FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, AND FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL (as in I Cor. 15:51) the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8) of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the princes (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." The first trump calls the Pre-Trib- Rapture saints to Heaven. The last trump calls the Pre-Wrath- Rapture saints to Heaven.

> > The timing of the seventh trumpet or the LAST TRUMPET occurs when Jesus returns to the kingdom of the world to begin His reign. It is at this time that He will begin His judgement.

I think the 7th trumpet is 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place at the "general assembly" in Heaven 7 months before the Second Advent, when Christ returns in glory.

The 7 trumpet judgments cause thick darkess (Joel 2:1-3). The day of the Second Advent is not a dark day. Zech. 14:6,7 says, "it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time IT SHALL BE LIGHT."

> > "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgement upon all..." > > Notice, it is at this time that Jesus returns with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgement. This is the return of the Lord at the very end of the Tribulation period.

The Judgment Seat of Christ is on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord 7 months before the 2nd Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). It takes place in Heaven. The Judgment of the Nations takes place on Earth after the Second Advent.

Rev 11:14-18 shows what happens on the 1st day of the Millennium. It says, "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (Christ is crowned King of kings and Lord of lords); and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats (that were caught up in the 1st Rapture), fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets), and wast (at the 1st Advent), and art to come (the 2nd Advent is still 7 months in the future); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come (Eze. 38:18-20), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants (at the Judgment Seat of Christ) the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them (unbelievers left on Earth) which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (that has the 2 stone tablets in it; the 2 asteroids (Rev. 8:8,10) they symbolize are cast on Earth): and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail" (as in Eze. 38:20).

> > (I Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJ))
> > Notice that Paul says the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED at the sounding of the last trumpet. When will the dead be raised? The Word of God gives us a very clear answer with Daniel:
> > "As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then AT THE END OF THE DAYS you WILL RISE to receive your allotted inheritance." (Daniel 12:12)
> > It is very clear that the dead will not rise until the very end of the days. The last trumpet will sound when the dead rise from their graves. This clearly places the last trumpet at the end of the Tribulation period. To argue that the last trumpet will sound before the end of the days is completely unfounded.

The dead are raised at both Raptures (I Thess. 4:16; Rev. 6:9-11; 20:5,6). Dan. 12:12,13 (KJV) is clear. It says, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till THE END be: for thou shalt rest (in Heaven during the Tribulation), and stand in thy lot (on his plot of ground on Earth) at THE END OF THE DAYS."

> > IN THE AIR
> > The other key verses that are used to show the pre-tribulational view are found in I Thessalonians 4:15-17: > > "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, WHO ARE LEFT till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and WHO ARE LEFT will be caught up with them IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
> > Notice where the above event takes place. It says IN THE CLOUDS. This is the exact same place that was described in the previous chapter when the earth is HARVESTED:
> > "I looked, and there before me was a white CLOUD. And seated on the CLOUD was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the CLOUD, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the HARVEST of the earth is ripe."

In I Thess. 4:15,17, the KJV says, "we which are alive AND REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep (the dead in Christ)...we which are alive AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds." Those that REMAIN are caught up together with the dead in Christ. Remain doesn't mean they are left behind.

The harvesting with the sickle in Rev. 14:14-16 is the Rapture of the Tribulation saints, the 2nd Rapture. That Rapture takes place on the same day Christ is crowned King of kings and Lord of Lords. Rev. 14:14-16 (KJV) says, "a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, HAVING ON HIS HEAD A GOLDEN CROWN, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for THE TIME IS COME FOR THEE (Christ) TO REAP; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

When the Tribulation saints are safely out of here, the angel symbolically reaps the unbelievers and throws them into the "great wine press of the WRATH OF GOD." Rev. 11:18,19 shows that the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the winepress of God's wrath happen on the same day. Rev. 6:12 is the breaking of the 6th seal. V. 17 says, "the great day of his wrath is come." The Tribulation saints are then caught up before the angels are given the 7 trumpets in Rev. 8. The Rapture is before noon, when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5).

> > Once the Rapture of First Fruit believers occurs, the Christians remaining will be completely surprised. Most had been taught all Christians are taken when the Rapture takes place. The horror of being left behind will be devastating. Blame, guilt and remorse will initially fill every believers heart. The true Church that remains will need to come together like it has never done before.
> > Until the SPIRITUAL EARTHQUAKE occurs, the believer still has time to prepare. This message is an exhortation to ALL born-again believers to repent and prepare to meet the Bridegroom. There is still time to be included in the First Fruits Rapture. There is still time to keep God's Word and be found holy, blameless, and worthy before God. Remember our Lord's instructions:
> > "Watch...and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape..." (Luke 21:36)

On this we agree. There are two Raptures and therefore some will be left behind the first time. If one gets left behind the first time, he should make sure he won't be left behind the 2nd time.

Luke 12:45,46 says, "be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

We must have extra oil of the Holy Spirit in our vessels (bodies) to go with the Bridegroom when he comes the first time (Mt. 25:1f). We should confess our sins so God can cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9). Agape

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