Pro and Con 851

Posted 12-27-01

Since my dad was knocked to his knees as ball lightning came in the front door, where he was standing, and went out the back door, I was very interested in this article:

"Ball lightning baffles scientists" 12-21-01
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1721000/1721473.stm

Ball lightning over Queensland, Australia, Image: Brett Porter

This picture of the freak weather phenomenon of ball lightning was taken by a wildlife ranger in Queensland, Australia, in 1987....

The term describes small natural fireballs which very occasionally follow ordinary lightning, floating across land or through buildings and aircraft....

The fireballs last around 10 seconds in some cases The lightning balls move around, sometimes downwards, sometimes upwards, sometimes indoors, sometimes through glass The ball often disappears in an explosion, sometimes causing damage.

One account referred to in the journal describes ball lightning seen in Papua New Guinea: "The ball of lightning (which was actually about the size of a cricket ball) came out of the clumps of bamboo, passed through the front wall of our house, moved very quickly through the lounge room and disappeared out the back wall.

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Re: Pro and Con Index
Don't know if this will work but am sending you the page of your numbered Pro and Con Index. I am able to down-load from #288 on. Hope you can also. Sorry about your computer problem.

Secondly, a belated Happy Birthday -I just turned 74 in August.. Sorry to have been out of touch for awhile.( I am asthmatic and have had a few bad attacks.) Time is running out and am looking forward to seeing you and your husband Ed soon-- hopefully before this year is out. Hope the index page is the answer for you. Maranatha

My reply

Thanks so much. I now have everything, and have a backup. Can't lose these any more. People are so nice.

It would be great if the Lord comes in the next few days, but if not, we should stay ready and watch as prophecy is being fulfilled right before our eyes. Maybe we will have to wait until spring, maybe Pentecost. If Song of Solomon 2:10-14 is talking about the Rapture, it depicts spring. Mt. 24:6 says, "ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but THE END is not yet." We will be raptured before THE END comes.

Incoming email

Here you go with something re: Patriarch Bartholomew at a meeting here in Washington D.C.
http://secretary.state.gov/www/statements/971022.html
---
Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright
Remarks at dinner for Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I Washington, D.C., 10-22-97...

SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Let me say how very pleased and honored I am to welcome all of you here this evening to join me in greeting the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew....
The visit of His All Holiness to the United States is a major event - not simply for the Orthodox community, but for all those who find in spiritual faith a source of personal courage, community identity and moral inspiration and healing for our nation and the world....
Your All Holiness, your vigorous spiritual leadership is a precious gift to Orthodox Christians in America and around the world, and a signal contribution to the cause of peace and understanding. You are promoting reconciliation among the Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant churches, and harmony among Christians, Muslims and Jews...

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http://www.patriarchate.org/PATRIARCH/INDEX.HTM
His All Holiness Bartholomew I Archbishop of Constantinople and New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch
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http://www.patriarchate.org/PATRIARCH/Speeches/MiscOld/The%20C.E.O.%20International%20University.htm
ADDRESS OF HIS ALL HOLINESS THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW
10-25-95 - "Fundamentalism and Faith in the New Millennium: A View From the Crossroads between East and West"

Greetings and welcome to Istanbul, the seat of the Ecumenical Throne of the Orthodox Christian Church....

But the next great frontier is the Islamic world, and the path to that world begins in Turkey, which is now approaching admission into the European Union....

Fundamentalism is a threat, not only to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, but to the Turkish State itself....

Many other interests would be served by the integration of Turkey into Europe....

...you will see us strive to establish and enhance a market-place dialogue between all believers as well....

But we will succeed only if we are united with our fellow spiritual leaders in the spirit of the one God, "Creator of all things visible and invisible." Roman Catholic and Jewish, Orthodox and Muslim, Protestant and Buddhist -- it is time not only for rapprochement, but even for alliance and teamwork to help lead our world away from the bloody abyss of extreme nationalism, fundamentalism, and intolerance....

We, at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, will continue our efforts to be peacemakers and to light the lamp of the human spirit....

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Subject: 7 years tribulation
Thank you again for all of our previous correspondence, you have been so helpful.

Now, I have read this over and over and I am still a little confused. I have been going over your Pro/Cons, and I came to this in #688 (and it is posted elsewhere as well), and I just don't understand it. Here it is again so you can see what I am refering to:

> > "Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, West Bank) in the Six-Day War of 1967 and fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. One generation from then, the things in Mt. 24:27-31 will come true. We know a generation is 40 years. In 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did, 40 years later, in 70 AD. Adding 40 years to 1967 brings us to 2007.

> > We can tell from Joel 1:14; 2:1-3, and many other scriptures, that this age will end and the millennial Day of the Lord begin on the Feast of Trumpets. In 2007, that is the Jewish Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). We can tell from Dan. 8:13,14 that the shortened Tribulation will be 2300 days. If we count the 2300 days backward from Tishri 1, 5768, by Jewish inclusive reckoning, we find that the Tribulation could very well begin May 28, 2001, which is Sivan 6, 5761, Pentecost.

> > Actually, when you count the years and the extra days (by Jewish inclusive reckoning) from when Jesus presented himself as King on Palm Sunday to Av 10 in 70 AD, when the temple was burned, you get 40 years plus another 120 days. In our days, from June 7, 1967, when the temple area was regained, to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), when Jesus Christ will be crowned in Heaven, is 40 years plus another 120 days. It is a mirror image.

> > The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. Add 7 good years and 7 bad years (as when Joseph was in Egypt) and you get Sept. 13, 2007. The Accords were ratified 3 days later in Israel on Tishri 1, 5754. Adding the 7 good years and 7 bad years brings us to Tishri 1, 5768, which just happens to be Sept. 13, 2007. This smacks of God's planning, don't you think"

Ok, here is where the difficulty lies for me. I thought the tribulation was 7 years long. If it begins on May 28, 2001, wouldn't that mean that it ends on aprox. May 28, 2008? I don't even know if I am asking this the way I want to, so as to end my confusion!!! Help! Because it seems to me that June 1967 plus 40 years, plus 120 days would equal = October 2007 but when you minus from that the date of the rapture May 28, 2001 = 6 years and this is why I don't understand how the tribulation is 7 years, but adds up to 6 this way? Please, if you have a chart to explain this that would be sooo helpful! Please make it very simple for us simple people! (I'm sorry if somehow I missed this explaination somewhere else... I have been reading alot of the older pro/cons looking for the answer)

I want to share a piece of my testimony with you... Every 7 years of my life is marked by an event with God. When I was 7 y.o. I asked Jesus into my heart ( I believed in Jesus, but it was not clear to me what salvation was at that time)... When I was 14 y.o. I know I was born-again, and I saw light fill me from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, in the spirit - it is hard to explain since I don't understand it myself. But I think I saw my spirit get "reborn". The light was an incredibly intense feeling of God's love...hard to explain in words how wonderful it felt and how it made me feel a heavy compassion for the lost and love for others... I was also water baptised that year, and that was an amazing blessing... I was not raised in church so I did backslide alot during the next 6 years, then in my 21st year I rededicated my life to God and was baptised in the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Now, I have seen the pattern in my life ( I believe God showed me this pattern) and I have known for the last 7 years that something specail would happen in my 28th year, which I am 28 now, and will be until October 2001. I pray this is the year I go to meet the Lord Jesus in the Rapture. I have never been able to envision my life past 28, but we will just have to see. I am searching the scriptures and the news and reading your site daily. What a blessing God has let come to us thru your intense study of God's word. I haven't found a prophesy site yet that is as helpful and indepth as yours... Agape to you and your family

My reply

Sorry to be so long answering. Thanks for your kind words.

> > , here is where the difficulty lies for me. I thought the tribulation was 7 years long. If it begins on May 28, 2001, wouldn't that mean that it ends on aprox. May 28, 2008?

The 70th week of Daniel/Tribulation is 7 years long, and that will get us in the ballpark. The first half of the Tribulation is 1260 days. During this Tribulation, Moses and Elijah prophesy. Rev. 11:3 says, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

The last half is called the Great Tribulation. It is to be shortened. Mt. 24:21,22 says, "then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED."

This presents us a problem. How much is the Tribulation shortened? Dan. 8:13,14 says, "I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days (lit., mornings and evenings); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Until Pentecost, 2001 passed, I thought the 2300 days fit between Sivan 6, 5761 and Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), the Feast of Trumpets that I think begins the millennial Day of the Lord.

Some have said that those 2300 days were fulfilled in the past, but even if they were, prophesied events cast their shadows before them. Also, right after that, Daniel "sought for the meaning," and was told in v. 17, "AT THE TIME OF THE END SHALL BE THE VISION." V. 19 says, "I will make thee know what shall be IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION (zaam, froth at the mouth fury, especially of God's anger and rage): for at the time appointed THE END shall be."

Verses 23-26 say, "in the latter time of their kingdom (the 4 divisions of Alexander's empire), when the transgressors are come to THE FULL, a king of fierce countenance (the False Prophet), and understanding dark sentences (he will be Satan possessed), shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (by Satan's): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: HE SHALL ALSO STAND UP AGAINST THE PRINCE OF PRINCES (Christ); but he shall be broken (deposed and hurt, right arm dried up, right eye put out, Zech. 11:17) without hand (by the asteroid impacts, Rev. 8:8,10). And THE VISION OF THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WHICH WAS TOLD IS TRUE: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."

> > it seems to me that June 1967 plus 40 years, plus 120 days would equal = October 2007

It is figured only using the Jewish Calendar. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. The days between Nisan 1 and Tishri 1 are the same every year. There were 40 years, plus another 120 days, from Nisan 8 (Palm Sunday in 30 AD) to Av 10 in 70 AD, when the temple proper was burned..

In our days, there are 40 years, plus another 120 days, between Iyar 28 (June 5, 1967), when the temple area was regained, to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007).

> > when you minus from that the date of the rapture May 28, 2001 = 6 years and this is why I don't understand how the tribulation is 7 years, but adds up to 6 this way?

The Tribulation didn't start last Pentecost, so the 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation do not end on Tishri 1, 2007 as I expected. (They did not start on Dec. 19, either, so they don't end on Nisan 1, April 6, 2008, when I expect the Second Advent.) Dan. 8:14 gives us the 2300 days, and v. 19 shows us that they end at "the last end." Maybe that means the end of Armageddon instead of the Day of God's Wrath.

Whatever, we have some more time to make sure we are ready and to try to reach others. Keep watching current events, especially concerning the pending peace covenant of Dan. 9:27 between the Palestinians and Israel. Peres has been working on it the last two months. Maybe it is closer to becoming reality than we might think.

> > I have known for the last 7 years that something specail would happen in my 28th year, which I am 28 now, and will be until October 2001. I pray this is the year I go to meet the Lord Jesus in the Rapture.

I can't see how it could go past this Jewish year, which ends Sept. 7, 2002. Agape and Happy Holidays.

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Re: rahab
you mentioned Rahab breaking up into pieces in one of your postings....I'm not sure if you said it was a planet or? I am trying to find some info on it....any idea where in the letters it might be? thanks,
PS...also a long time ago I remember you writing about Israel and 1967, and I seem to recall you saying that you believed that there was a special group born in that year. can you direct me to that as well?

My reply

I don't know where I wrote about these things before.

I think Satan's planet that was split apart and formed our Asteroid Belt was named Rahab. Isa 51:9 says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 53:1f); awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut (lit., split) Rahab, and wounded the dragon?" (Satan).

Rahab means proud, and Satan's downfall was his pride. Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (i.e., Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (the asteroid of Rev. 8:10)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

> > Israel and 1967, and I seem to recall you saying that you believed that there was a special group born in that year

Israel fulfilled the fig tree parable in Mt. 24:32-34 in the Six-Day War of 1967. It says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos. 9:10; Eze. 36:8; Jer. 24:5,6; 29:16,17); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no older than 19, as when they left Egypt), and putteth forth leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights), ye know that summer is nigh (the Six-Day War started June 5; summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8; 4:1). Verily I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since Israel was 19 that year, that was the last year it could apply to. The latter days began in 1967. Forty years later is 2007. I think "this generation" were those born in 1967.

How do we know that a generation is 40 years? In 30 AD, Jesus scolded the Pharisees and said, "Verily (amen, so be it) I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did, 40 years later, in 70 AD. Agape

My reply to a file on the Five Doves site. It is omitted because of its length.

Re: 10th planet
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2001/davidd1225.htm
David Duncan (25 Dec)
"About Joe Hill's 12/19 Post on 10th Planet"
---
We don't agree on dates, but I agree with your concept of a heavenly body turning the Earth upside down. I think it will be a binary asteroid that breaks apart before impacting Earth. One piece will impact the Mediterranean Sea. The other will destroy Babylon, Iraq.

> > Isaiah text is a dead match to what would occur if the 10th planet were to come into the solar system in May of 2003

I expect the binary asteroid (as in Rev. 8:8,10) to break apart and impact the middle east on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), destroying the sea coast of Israel and Babylon.

When the "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea," I think it represented the asteroid that will impact the Mediterranean Sea. Zeph. 2:3-5 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."

When "the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star (aster, star, asteroid, meteorite) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters," I think this one will destroy Babylon. Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a STONE LIKE A GREAT MILLSTONE, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Zech. 5:4 tell us what "the curse" (the binary asteroid) that is twice as long as it is wide will do. "I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Pope, who claims infallibility): and it shall remain in the midst of his house (at Babylon), and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."

Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here (the False Prophet)? and whom hast thou here (Satan, that indwells the FP), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (in the asteroid), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a ROCK? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and toss thee (i.e., the asteroid) like a ball into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

It will be on the Day of the Wrath of God. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn FEASTS; and ONE SHALL TAKE YOU AWAY WITH IT." Hos. 9:5-7 says, "What will ye do in the solemn day, and in the day of the FEAST of the LORD? For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up, Memphis shall bury them: the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them: thorns shall be in their tabernacles. THE DAYS OF VISITATION ARE COME, THE DAYS OF RECOMPENCE ARE COME; Israel shall know it: the prophet (the False Prophet) is a fool, the spiritual man (Tribulation Pope, the Beast, Rev. 13:2-10) is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred."

Hos. 5:7-10 says, "They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a month (chodesh, new moon) devour them with their portions. Blow ye the cornet in Gibeah, and the TRUMPET in Ramah: cry aloud at Bethaven, after thee, O Benjamin. Ephraim shall be desolate in the DAY OF REBUKE." The only feast that is on the new moon is Trumpets.

It will be the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Joel 1:14,15 says, "Sanctify ye a fast (the coming Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly (on the Feast of Trumpets), gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come" (i.e., on the 1st day). Joel 2:1,2 says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand (it is the last day of this age; Trumpets starts at 6 PM); A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army is attacking Israel, Eze. 38); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

> > It seems the Isaiah text and the flipping of the earth is a dead match to the Sixth Seal

You're right on the nose for the beginning of the catastrophe. The binary asteroid will probably break apart at the Roche Limit, about 11,000 miles out. Small rocks will begin to fall like figs. They may be meteorites in the same orbit as the binary asteroid. The main asteroid pieces will fall at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) the next day, after the 7th seal is broken and the 7 trumpets start to sound.

> > If this is to take place in the spring of 2003, then there is a little more than a year for the first 5 Seals to take place. The enormous rush of world events seem to make it certain, at least to me, that the 16 or so months that remain until May,2003 ---in order for them to contain the first 5 seals, that the AC will have to do his donkey ride down the Mount of Olives, and strut up onto the Temple Mount this spring, this coming Passover of 2002

I think the False Prophet will desecrate the temple Mid-Trib, not at its beginning. At the beginning, the two witnesses must arrive, prophesy 1260 days and then be killed when the False Prophet takes command (Rev. 11:3f).

> > Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. COMMENT: if immediately after we are safely in the Rock of our Saviour, removed to Heaven to the mansions He has prepared for us, the AC is introduced to the world, then this would be the white horse

Isa. 26:20 sounds to me like the Pre-Wrath Rapture, rather than the Pre-Trib Rapture. The indignation is on the Day of God's Wrath.

After the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 rides on the scene as a prince of peace. That's why the horse is white like Christ's in Rev. 19:11. On the Beast's head is "the name of blasphemy" (Pontifex Maximus, the same as were on the other 5 heads). At the same time that he rides on the scene, the False Prophet is revealed when he confirms the covenant with many (Dan. 9:27). Agape

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Re: Petra and the "shortened" Great Tribulation?
Hey, how are ya doing? I pray this finds you in health. I was wondering: When the believers flee to Petra, the Word states they will stay there for 3.5 years (time, times, and half a time). If the Great Tribulation is "shortened" then how could they still be there? The pre-wrath rapture would have taken place seven months prior according to your timeline. Are they taken or left behind for some reason?

My reply

...The Tribulation saints are caught up just before the Wrath of God hits. I don't think the believers will be in Petra after the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The times are given as if there were no shortening. Yet, Jesus said that the Great Tribulation would be shortened. In Mt. 24:20-22 he said, "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Petra (Gr. rock), which is also called Sela (Heb., rock), is in the area that was Edom, which is to be destroyed on the "day of vengeance" (Tishri 1) AND the year (probably 5768) of MY REDEEMED" (including the just raptured Tribulation saints) (Isa. 63:4).

Practically as soon as the Tribulation saints are raptured, Edom is destroyed. Jer. 49:16-18 says, "Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, NO MAN SHALL ABIDE THERE, neither shall a son of man dwell in it." Verse 21 says, "The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea."

The day of vengeance is 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). Even more time than that will go by until the actual end of the 3.5 years. Agape

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