Pro and Con 854

Posted 1-5-01

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Just found this on the Weekend Discussion Group (Wedg) Thought it to be quite interesting---another sign?? We are so-o-o close. Didn't know if you had seen this. YSIC

Sun unleashes monster eruption, 1-4-02
By Richard Stenger

The many eyes of SOHO watch the coronal mass ejection. The white line...reveals the path of Venus.

CNN - The sun discharged a powerful burst of energy on Friday, igniting the most complex coronal mass ejection since an international solar observatory launched six years ago, according to astronomers.

The eruption, a twisting assemblage of bright patches that resembles a fantastical dragon, unleashed billions of tons of particles at speeds of about 2.2 million mph (3.5 million km/h)....

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Re: Comment from Daniel on P&C 852
It has been awhile since I have had a chance to write. I try to keep up with all of your P&C's. In my view, your website and the information and vision that it imparts is one of the most important on the internet. I am so thankful that you have put the link to my latest Be The Bride book at the top of your site. Many have read the book, because of finding it through your site, that have had their priorities in life changed. I have gotten so many encouraging e-mails from people that learned about the book on your web site. Thanks again.

I had one comment on something you wrote in P&C 852. You said . . .

>>>Luke 21:24 says, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." These "times" may have been fulfilled when Israel took eastern Jerusalem in the Six-Day War. If not then, they may end when the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

Here is my take on that verse. The fact that this verse says, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" . . . leads me to believe that it will not be trodden down again after the next part of the verse comes to pass... when "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." We know according to Zechariah 14:1-2 that Jerusalem will be trodden down again of the Gentile Gog Magog, New World Order Force in the future immediately before the Day of the Lord, when the wrath of God begins. Zech. 14:1-2 says, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." That would seem to eliminate Luke 21:24 being fulfilled during the six day war of 1967 as well the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

I believe a key is seeing that the word "Gentiles" that is used twice in this verse is referring to two different groups of Gentiles (or ethnos, a non-Jewish race). The first reference to Gentiles is referring to the non-Jewish nations that have come against Jerusalem in past history as well as the non-Jewish Gog Magog New World Order forces that are to come against Jerusalem in the future (that I just mentioned). I personally think that the phrase "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is tied to the phrase "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" in Romans 11:25. That verse and the next verse (26) says, ". . . that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved . . ." Israel is partly blind (there are some Messianic Jews that have accepted Jesus as their Messiah) until the sign of the son of man occurs on the Day of the Lord when they "see He whom they have pierced" (Zech. 12:10). It is on this day, the Day of the Lord, that "all of Israel is saved". The "fullness of the Gentiles coming in" referred to in the last part of verse 25 of Rom. 11 is referring to the massive ingathering of non-Jewish people into the kingdom of God during the shortened tribulation. In Be The Bride vol. 3 (which is online at Http:// I spend a whole chapter talking about the massive harvest of those who become tribulation saints (a "great multitude no man could number" Rev. 7:9) that is referred to in scripture as the Latter Rain Harvest. It is this massive ingathering of believers that I believe is being referred to as "thefullness of the Gentiles" in Romans 11:25 and as the "times of the Gentiles being fullfilled" in Luke 21:24. The large company of tribulation saints, made up of mostly Gentiles, will be harvested or raptured right BEFORE the wrath of God is unleashed and right AFTER "Jerusalem is trodden down" for the last time by the Gentile New World Order Forces at the Gog- Magog war. This war is initiated on the day preceding the Day of the Lord. To me the time that Jerusalem ceases to be trodden down by the Gentiles has to refer to the Day of the Lord, the day the fullness of the Gentiles, making up the tribulation saints, is come in (raptured).

What do you think?

Your brother in Jesus. Daniel Rydstedt

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. One thing we really want to be is part of the Bride of Christ, and shouldn't leave a stone unturned in our quest.

> > > > These "times" may have been fulfilled when Israel took eastern Jerusalem in the Six-Day War. If not then, they may end when the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

I was thinking of the Lord starting to deal with Israel when the 70th week of Daniel begins, also that their troubles during the latter part of the Tribulation were because of an Israeli False Prophet. However, when Gog's army attacks, the army is Gentile.

> > Zech. 14:1-2...That would seem to eliminate Luke 21:24 being fulfilled during the six day war of 1967 as well the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27
> > I personally think that the phrase "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is tied to the phrase "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" in Romans 11:25.

I think you are right. Thanks for making it clear. I am so glad you mentioned Rom. 11:25. Here are a couple of translations that seem to show it clearly. Rom. 11:25 (Weymouth) "there is a truth, brethren, not revealed hitherto, of which I do not wish to leave you in ignorance, for fear you should attribute superior wisdom to yourselves--the truth, I mean, that partial blindness has fallen upon Israel UNTIL THE GREAT MASS OF THE GENTILES HAVE COME IN." The great mass sounds like the "great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS" that are raptured in Rev. 7:9,14.

Rom. 11:25,26 (Rotherham) says, "I wish not, ye should be ignorant, brethren, of this sacred secret, lest within yourselves ye be presumptuous, that, a hardening in part, hath befallen Israel, UNTIL, THE FULL MEASURE OF THE NATIONS, SHALL COME IN; And, so, all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written." Israel is to be saved in a day. Isa. 66:8 (KJV) says, "shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." That follows the Pre-Wrath Rapture. These will live on into the Millennium.

> > (a "great multitude no man could number" Rev. 7:9) that is referred to in scripture as the Latter Rain Harvest.

Where?The closest I could come is Jer 5:24. It says, "Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth RAIN, both the FORMER and the LATTER, in HIS SEASON (I take it that this means Christ came as the former rain [Tishri 1] at the First Advent and will return as the latter rain [Nisan 1] at the Second Advent (Hos. 6:3; Eze. 29:17,22): he reserveth unto us the appointed WEEKS (i.e., counting the omer, 7 x 7 = 49) of the HARVEST" (the 50th day). Here, I get referred right back to a Rapture on Pentecost. It can't mean the 70th week of Dan. 9:27, because that is only one week. The only specific weeks that precede a harvest feast are the 7 weeks between Resurrection Day and Pentecost. I accept that the 7 weeks are the Pentecost cycle. The 50th day is also the 1st of the next cycle.

Pentecost is the 2nd of the 3 feasts when they were expected to go up to Jerusalem. Ex. 23:16 says, "the FEAST OF HARVEST, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field (i.e., world): and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field." Exo 34:22 says, "thou shalt observe the FEAST OF WEEKS, of the FIRSTFRUITS OF WHEAT HARVEST, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end." We are called wheat, so this fits.

> > To me the time that Jerusalem ceases to be trodden down by the Gentiles has to refer to the Day of the Lord, the day the fullness of the Gentiles, making up the tribulation saints, is come in (raptured).

What do you think?

I think you are right. Thanks for showing me. Agape

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Re: Raised up church
what do you think of the doctrine that is floating around about the Church being raised up before Christ return??? I dont see much in scripture about this but what happenes to the left-behind members??/ Do you see these people being raised up in Glory as some say? Your brother in Christ

My reply

I don't know for sure what you mean by "raised up in Glory." Glory can indicate Heaven or it can mean radiating light, such as when Jesus was seen at the Transfiguration.

The wise virgins will be raised up to Heaven. When Paul was caught up to Heaven in II Cor. 12, he said, "whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell.: God knoweth."

I know the raptured ones will see Christ in his glory. Rev. 1:13-16 tells us how he will appear right after the Rapture. Much of Rev. 1 is a Preview of the Rapture that actually takes place in Rev. 4:1. His "hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire...And his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Rev. 1:14,16).

I believe that Christ will come for the wise Philadelphian virgins (Mt. 25:1f; Rev. 3:8-11), but will wait for us in the air. He will not touch his feet to the mount of Olives until after the Tribulation. At that time, "the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south" (Zech. 14:4).

The Preterists think Christ came in 70 AD, but that couldn't be true. The mount of Olives has not yet split. However, one of the big hotel chains refused to build on it because it does sit on a fault line. It is already set up for Zech. 14:4 to happen, but the time is not yet right.

There are two Raptures. Those left behind the 1st time will go the 2nd time, but no crowns are mentioned for them as they are for the 1st group (Rev. 3:11). There is a first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16) and a "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52). The Pre-Trib Rapture is before the 7-year 70th week of Dan. 9:27 that we call the Tribulation. The 2nd Rapture is just before the Wrath of God hits Earth.

The group out of every nation in Rev. 5:9 is caught up when John and the other 23 elders are caught up in Rev. 4:1. All 24 elders, the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles, are seen crowned and sitting on their thrones right after the Pre-Trib Rapture, in Rev. 4:4.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation (Mt. 24:21,22). Those get caught up as if out of a fiery furnace. In the prototype, Dan. 3:26 says, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire." In Rev. 7, a great multitude are caught up out of the Great Tribulation (7:14), before the breaking of the 7th seal releases the 7 trumpet judgments.

Nu. 10:1-4 sets the example, or type, of both Raptures. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (12 of the elders), shall gather themselves unto thee."

When the first trump of God sounds, the Pre-Trib Rapture will take place. When both sound, the 2nd Rapture takes place. At that time, all believers will be called to the "general assembly" in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). It is Christ's Coronation Day, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb and day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. Mk. 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those who were previously caught up to heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

I Thess. 4:13-18 tells us about the 1st Rapture. It says, "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (believers), concerning them which are asleep (the dead in Christ), that ye sorrow not, even as others (unbelievers) which have NO HOPE. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS."

A distiction is made between those that have no hope and those that have a blessed hope. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the "blessed hope." Tit 2:13 shows that we are "Looking for that BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." In Luke 21:36 Jesus told us what believers should do. It says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass (i.e., the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man."

I Cor. 15:51,52 is talking about the 2nd Rapture. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Soon, the whole Body of Christ will be in Heaven at the "general assembly" (Heb. 12:23). Rev. 11:15-18 tells us what happens at the general assembly. It says, "there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Hints of the Pre-Trib Rapture are even in the Old Testament. Isa. 57:1 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPES), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (acaph, removed, EVACUATED), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY (acaph, removed, EVACUATED) FROM THE EVIL TO COME." This ties in with the New Testament. Rev. 3:10,11 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

The foolish Laodicean virgins that get left behind have to go through most of the Tribulation. In Rev. 3:16-19, Jesus says to them, "because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (as the Body of Christ, believers are in Christ). Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold (symbol of deity) tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and REPENT."

When the Tribulation saints finally get to Heaven, they will have washed their robes in the blood of Christ to make them white (Rev. 7:14). They should use I John 1:9 now instead of waiting. It says, "If we CONFESS our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." Agape

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Re: 7 trumpets
If the trumpets all happen on the same day there is a problem. Rev 8:12 The day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Rev 9:2 smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.. Rev 9:15 four angels were loosed which were prepared for an hour and a day and a month and a year. (if this is a fulfillment of Amos 8:9 it does not match) Amos said sun to go down a noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day. If its a clear day then the other trumpets could not have sounded. There is another problem with the asteroid theory. why would the Holy Spirit refer to one asteroid as a mountain in Rev 8:8 and as a great star from heaven in Rev 8:10???

My reply

I think the darkness caused by small flaming rocks falling like figs starts when the 6th seal is broken (Rev. 6:12) on the last day of this age. After the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the 7th seal is broken the next day releasing the 7 trumpet judgments. The two large flaming asteroid pieces will fall at noon on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. The darkness is partial on Elul 29, but there is "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1-3) on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Why? small rocks fall on the preparation for the Feast of Trumpets; huge rocks fall on the feast day. One is smaller (mountain sized). It doesn't open the bottomless pit. The larger one, called an "aster," star, asteroid, flaming meteorite, will open the bottomless pit and form the Lake of Fire.

> > Rev 9:15 four angels were loosed which were prepared for an hour and a day and a month and a year. (if this is a fulfillment of Amos 8:9 it does not match) Amos said sun to go down a noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day. If its a clear day then the other trumpets could not have sounded.

The hour is 12 noon. The day and month are Tishri 1. The year is probably 5768 (2007/2008). Zeph. 2:3-5 says of the mountain sized piece, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD'S anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the SEA COAST."

Look at different translations to see how to take the KJV's "clear day." Amos 8:9 tells us about the feast day. The Literal Version (LITV) says, "it shall be in THAT DAY (often used for the 1st day of the Millennium), declares the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause THE SUN TO GO DOWN AT NOON, and I WILL DARKEN THE EARTH IN LIGHT OF THE DAY."

Amos 8:8-10 (LXX) says, "DESTRUCTION shall come up as a river, and shall descend as the river of Egypt. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that THE SUN SHALL GO DOWN AT NOON, AND THE LIGHT SHALL BE DARKENED ON THE EARTH BY DAY: and I will turn your FEASTS into mourning, and all your songs into a DAY OF GRIEF."

Joel 1:15,19;2:1-4(LXX) says, "Alas, Alas, Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD IS NIGH (it is the next day), and it will come as TROUBLE UPON TROUBLE....To thee, O Lord, will I cry: for fire has devoured the fair places of the wilderness, and A FLAME HAS (already, on the last day of this age) BURNT UP ALL THE TREES of the field (fires are set by the burning meteorites on the preparation day for Trumpets)....Sound the TRUMPET in Sion, make a proclamation in my holy mountain, and let all the inhabitants of the land be confounded: for the day of the Lord is near; for A DAY OF DARKNESS and gloominess is near, a day of cloud and mist: a numerous and strong people (Gog's army) shall be spread upon the mountains as the morning; there has not been from the beginning one like it (therefore Gog's attack can't take place at the beginning of the Tribulation), and after it there shall not be again even to the years of many generations. Before them is a consuming fire, and behind them is a flame kindled: the land before them is as a paradise of delight, and behind them a desolate plain: and there shall none of them escape. Their appearance is as (symbolic language) the appearance of HORSES (symbol of demons in Rev. 9); and as HORSEMEN (demon-possessed men), so shall they pursue."

Compare Joel with Rev. 9:1-8 (KJV). It says, "the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star (Satan, Rev. 12:4,9) fall (lit., fallen, i.e., Mid-Trib) from heaven unto the earth: and to him (Satan) was given the key of the bottomless pit (his home is on the asteroid Wormwood that will open the abyss and form the Lake of Fire). And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a SMOKE out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were DARKENED BY REASON OF THE SMOKE of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts (demons) upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing (demonstrating that they are not really locusts needing green food to live), neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months...And the shapes of the locusts were like (symbolic language) unto HORSES (demons) prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were (symbolic language) crowns like gold, and their faces were as (symbolic language) the faces of men (demon-possessed men)."

I think it all harmonizes. It is 1 AM. Got to get some sleep. Hope this helps. Agape

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Aba (1 Jan) "LOCUSTS"

I believe that the "locusts" of Revelations will be some sort of REAL bug! Not an invading army of something or other, but real, live vermin! There are certain things in Revelations that I believe are symbolic, but only when they are presented as such. Otherwise, I believe every word is to be taken as literal, unless impossible to do so.

My reply

I believe that the locusts of Rev. 9 are demons, fallen angels. They have faces "AS the faces of men." Locusts do not. These "locusts" are not men, but they have similar faces, as angels do. They do not eat any green things that would be necessary for a real locust to live. They come up out of the bottomless fiery pit and live. Real locusts would be toast. Symbolic language (LIKE, AS, AS IT WERE) is used repeatedly in Rev. 9:1-10. Suddenly, in v. 10, the symbolism stops. Satan "IS" the angel of the bottomless pit. He IS the destroyer. He IS king over the demons. Real locusts do not have the angel of the bottomless pit as king over them. Real locusts do not look like horses (9:7).

V. 3 says, "there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, AS the scorpions of the earth have power." Scorpions can put the point of their tail into a man. This symbolizes what these demons can do. They can put their tail into men that do not have the seal of the living God in them. This means that these unsaved men can be demon-possessed.

The False Prophet will have the tail of the great red dragon in him. He will be Satan possessed. Isa. 9:15 says, "The ancient and honourable (Tribulation Pope, the Beast), he is the head (6th head of the great red dragon); and the prophet that teacheth lies (False Prophet), he is the tail." The reason he is the tail is because he is Satan-possessed. He also is the 7th head of the great red dragon.

Mid-Trib, Satan's "tail drew the third part of the stars (his fallen angels) of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" (Rev. 12:4). Then Satan is "cast out INTO THE EARTH" (v. 9). Do you see the difference? The demons are cast TO THE EARTH. Satan is cast INTO THE EARTH. He is cast into the bottomless pit.

In Rev. 17:8, Satan is the beast that "was (in Judas Iscariot, "son of perdition," Jn. 17:12), and is not (in man now); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and GO INTO PERDITION" (the False Prophet, the only other "son of perdition; II Thess. 2:3). Agape

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