Pro and Con 858

Posted 1-17-02

Saudis financed terror ship - Paid $10 million to Iran for arms destined for Palestinian intifada
The financing of the Karine-A arms-smuggling ship destined for the Gaza Strip came from Saudi Arabia – a shocking discovery made, according to intelligence sources, by all three teams investigating the affair: American, Israeli and Palestinian.

They established that Saudi sources put up the $10 million paid over to Iran for the weapons cargo, the $400,000 purchasing price for the vessel and another $1 million to cover miscellaneous expenses, such as hiring the crew, fuel, repairs and port charges.

The discovery rocked the U.S. and Israeli governments back on their heels....
In largest unity movement ever, churches blur denominational lines, By Jane Lampman
...The nine denominations involved are the African Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Christian Church-Disciples of Christ, Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, Episcopal Church, International Council of Community Churches, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Church of Christ, and United Methodist Church. The ELCA is a "partner in dialogue," and the Moravians, American Baptists, and Roman Catholics are "consultant observers" to the CUIC.

Incoming email

From: Finland Re: pentecost Saturnrises etc.
Here are the Saturnrises from Jerusalem horizon.

May 31 and June 1, 1998 - about 2.39
May 21 and 22, 1999 - about 3.45
June 9 and 10, 2000 - about 3.12
May 28 and 29, 2001 - about 5.10
May 17 and 18, 2002 - about 6.00

About Wilkerson - he is one of the few that have told in advance about New York events. He said ( years ago ) that the Stock Exchange will melt and that there will be thousand or more fires in New York, riots and tanks(still coming). He also said (it is in the net ) that Americas fine weapons will be as useful as stones and sticks against the coming menace. He has also warned that we will se a rebirth of Communist Russia. There are allready signs of this beginning to happen...Agape

My reply

Thanks for looking these up. The times when Saturn rises do suggest that we have been building up to a climax this coming Pentecost.

There are people who think that the USA is Babylon, that the Gog and Magog war will hit the USA, or that the Gog-Magog war will happen before the Tribulation. I don't think that way. To me, Babylon is literally in the desert (Mt. 24:26), a wilderness (Rev. 17:3), and Gog's army will attack Israel at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. This attack brings on the Day of God's Wrath. Agape

Are the 2 women of Zech. 5:9 female angels?

On Five Doves site: "To: Carl - Female Angels" - George Wang (15 Jan)

Whether they are good or bad I don't know, but these two women are angels.

"Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven." (Zechariah 5:9) God bless, George

My reply

Re: Are there female angels?
Unless I can clearly see that Scripture mentions female angels, I will continue to agree with R.B. Thieme that they are only spoken of in the Bible in the masculine gender. I have read many translations of the Bible without finding angels referred to as feminine. Bob Thieme knows both Hebrew and Greek, and he hasn't found angels mentioned as being anything but masculine.

Personally, I don't think the two women in Zech. 5 are angels. Rev. 17 shows that a woman is used in the Bible to symbolize a religious group, the harlot church of the end times, the church group that is moved to Babylon in Iraq.

Zech. 5:1-11 is very symbolic. It is talking about the end times. "Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked (at the sky), and behold a flying roll (symbolizing a rotating binary asteroid orbiting over the face of the Earth). And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits (it is twice as long as it is wide). Then said he unto me, THIS IS THE CURSE THAT GOETH FORTH OVER THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it."

I think the 2 stone tablets with the 10 commandments on them represent the 2 main parts of this stony asteroid.

Continuing, Zec 5:4f says, "I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (False Prophet, a thief, as the other son of perdition, Judas Iscariot, was), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Tribulation Pope claims infallibility): and it (the 'aster' of Rev. 8:10) shall remain in the midst of his house (in Babylon), and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."

Since we need to understand that at the end, the houses of the Beast and False Prophet are in Babylon, verses 5-11 reveal to us how the Beast's house came to be in Babylon.

"Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes (i,e., look at the sky), and see WHAT IS THIS that goeth forth. And I said, WHAT IS IT? And he said, This is an ephah (largest wheat measure (symbolizing the largest church), that goeth forth. He said moreover, THIS IS THEIR RESEMBLANCE THROUGH ALL THE EARTH. And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman (the harlot church of Rev. 17) that sitteth in the midst of the ephah (the world church). And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof."

"Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women (two religious groups), and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork (i.e., they could fly (probably in airplanes): and they lifted up the ephah (world church, United Religions) between the earth and the heaven. Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear (yalak, carry) the ephah (world church)? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (meaning change of the city; Babylon, Dan. 1:1,2; Gen. 11:2): and it (the world church) shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (the Tower of Babel).

Rev. 18:21 tells us how this world church is destroyed: "a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone (the asteroid of Rev. 8:10), and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall BE FOUND NO MORE AT ALL." At that point, Jer 50:39 will come true. It says, "Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and IT SHALL BE NO MORE INHABITED FOR EVER; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation."

The stone represents the larger asteroid piece after it breaks apart. Before the two main stones of Rev. 8:8,10 separate, this binary asteroid is "THE CURSE that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth" (Zech. 5:3).

The Tribulation saints are raptured before the 2 main asteroid pieces impact Earth. Rev 18:4 says, "I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." These are the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude that no man can number of Rev. 7.9,14. They come "OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION" just before the 7th seal releases the 7 trumpet judgments. They have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Agape

Incoming email

From: Norway
Re: Saturn rising & settings on &.Sivan
As astronomer I have calculated the exact rising & setting times for Saturn -
Jerusalem Mean Time - just above the Temple site as follows:

JMT (Jerusalem Meran time)

Date Date Rising Rising South Setting
6.Sivan mai 31, 1998 2:32:00 8:56:00 15:20:00
6.Sivan mai 21, 1999 3:43:00 10:17:00 16:51:00
6.Sivan juni 9, 2000 3:11:00 9:56:00 16:41:00
6.Sivan mai 28, 2001 4:35:00 11:27:00 18:20:00
5.Sivan mai 16, 2002 6:02:00 13:00:00 19:58:00
6.Sivan mai 17, 2002 5:58:00 12:56:00 19:54:00
best regards

My reply

Thanks a bunch. It's nice to have the exact times. That's an interesting chart. It seems to suggest that we have been ascending to a climax. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Jerusalem Post Newspaper Online News From Israel

It sure seems that it is taking a heck of a long time for "Samson" to wake up from his "nap" with "Delilah!" Judges 16

Soon "Samson" (Israel) will will lean against the "pillars" of Islam (the fifth "pillar" of Islam is the Hajj). And down will come the "house of Dagon" (Islam) (Judges 16:24)
Arafat unmasked
Comment By Binyamin Netanyahu
(January 11) - The capture of an arms laden ship destined for the Palestinian Authority unmasked Yasser Arafat once again before the entire world. It exposed yet again his systematic duplicity of talking peace in the West while preparing for war in the East. Arafat fans and lowers the flame of terror as he sees fit, always preparing the next murderous attack in order to pursue his unchanging objective: the destruction of Israel....

First, the existential danger posed by a Palestinian state has again been brought to light. Once a Palestinian state is established, we will be unable to prevent ships from delivering weapons to it day and night, and it will become nothing less than a sovereign terrorist power. Within a short time, such a state will obtain weapons that will endanger the entire country and threaten every Israeli citizen.

My reply

Thanks. Good thinking on the part of Binyamin Netanyahu, former prime minister of Israel. I don't want Israel to declare a Palestinian state either, but Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat (meaning the judgment of Jehovah), and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land." The word for "parted" is "chalaq," divide, take away a portion.

Verses 9-20 show us what will happen when Gog's army attacks as this age ends and the millennial Day of the Lord begins. "Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near (the next day) in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake (as in Eze. 38:20): but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more....Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation."

Mention of the sickle reminds us of Rev. 14:19: "the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Zeph. 2:1-7 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place) in the day of the LORD'S anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant. And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks. And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah."

Gaza and the cities of the sea coast will be destroyed when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea. The Lord will fight for Israel. Zech. 14:1-3 says, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

That day of battle was Joshua's Long Day, when more died from the falling stones than the Israelites killed. The upcoming long day will be Jesus' Long Day. Jesus from the Hebrew is Joshua. Jos 10:11 says, "as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword."

My reply to Doug on 5 Doves site

"two rapture theory," by Doug Blakemore (17 Jan)

> > Regarding the two rapture theory that is strongly supported and well defended by M. Agee and others, I have done a bit of thinking lately. I am coming to the conclusion that IF you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture or if you believe in a mid-tribulation rapture as I am beginning to become convinced it probably is, then in a sense, you almost MUST believe in a 2 rapture theory - of sorts.

Thanks for your kind remarks, and for sharing your thoughts.

I can understand your thinking a Mid-trib Rapture makes sense, because from 1968 to 1970 or 1971, I thought that the Rapture of the Tribulation saints was Mid-Trib. What fooled me was the chapter division in Dan. 12. I didn't connect Dan. 12:1,2 with Dan. 11:45, which says of the False Prophet, "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet HE SHALL COME TO HIS END, and none shall help him." Since the FP will be deposed at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation, the Pre-Wrath Rapture also happens at that time.

Dan. 12:1,2 (KJV) says, "And AT THAT TIME (end of the shortened Great Tribulation) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (it's the Day of God's Wrath, the day of Jacob's trouble): and AT THAT TIME thy people (the 144,000 Israelites) shall be delivered (malat, ESCAPE), EVERY ONE that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake."

Dan. 12:1 in Young's Literal Translation says, "And AT THAT TIME stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and AT THAT TIME do thy people ESCAPE, EVERY ONE who is found written in the book."

I knew that Michael was mentioned Mid-Trib in Rev. 12, so the mention of Michael also caused me to think of Mid-Trib for the 2nd Rapture, but Michael is occupied fighting the fallen angels at that time. Rev. 12:7,8 says, "there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Since every last believer written in the book is caught up by the Day of Jacob's Trouble, which is the Day of God's Wrath, that is the last Rapture. Therefore, 1 Cor. 15:51,52 is talking about the "last trump," which is the last Rapture, and I Thess. 4:13-18 is talking about the first "trump of God," which is the first Rapture.

The last trump of God can't be Mid-Trib, it includes all the Tribulation saints up to the Day of God's Wrath, but can the first trump of God be Mid-Trib? Here are some things to consider. Rev. 3:10,11 (Rotherham) says, "Because thou didst keep my word of endurance, I also, will KEEP THEE OUT OF THE HOUR OF TRIAL, WHICH IS ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that, no one, take thy crown."

The Beast rules during the 1st 1260 days of the Tribulation. At that time, he blasphemes "THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN" (Rev. 13:6). The Rapture has already taken place. These saints are in Heaven while the Beast rules on Earth.

In Rev. 17:14, the Rapture has already taken place. It says, "THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL." This is at the time when the ten kings "have received no kingdom as yet" (v. 12). In Rev. 13:1, we see that all 10 kings are crowned at the beginning of the Beast's reign.

Isa. 57:1-3 (Rotherham) says, "The righteous one, hath perished (abad, ESCAPED), And not a man, hath taken it to heart—YEA THE MEN OF LOVINGKINDNESS, HAVE BEEN WITHDRAWN No one considering, That FROM THE PRESENCE OF CALAMITY, HATH THE RIGHTEOUS BEEN WITHDRAWN. He entereth into peace, Let them rest upon their couches,—Each one who went on a straight path. But, ye, …draw near hither, Ye sons of divination,—Ye seed of an adulterer when your mother committed unchastity!" The righteous have escaped, and the sons of divination that will rule in the Tribulation are "near."

Jesus said to watch. Watching seems more beneficial before the Tribulation than after it begins. We can see Israel and the PA heading toward strengthening the covenant. I expect the Pope and the UN to get into the act before the final is approved with many (Dan. 9:27). I sure hope to be in Heaven before that happens.

I Thess. 4:18 says, "comfort one another with these words." I Thess. 5:4 says, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." Then v. 11 again says, "comfort yourselves together, and edify one another." How could these be words of comfort if we were to go through any part of the Tribulation? Rev. 13:7 says, "it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." Those are not comforting words at all, and it is in the first half of the Tribulation. Maranatha. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Sun Show (Sun dogs)
Yes this is a very similar thing to what we saw a while back. After that time, I came to the conclusion that the source of what we saw, as well as some (not all) of the rainbows in little blobs so to speak, was from particulates in the air. These particulates, in my opinion, are from sprayed material of unknown airplanes. There is all kinds of this information, under the topic "Chemtrails". I am convinced our household has had way more respiratory distress the last three years due to this material being sprayed in the air.

On another topic, I have been continuing to study and pray over the word "ecclessia" in Revelation. It is true that this refers to "church". The obstacle I have with this, is that I have not been able to rule out "church" being an assemby. Assembly does not imply that all in the assembly are "In Christ". I think you would agree with me that any who are "In Christ" would be worthy of Redemption before the start of the Tribulation. As was said to Nicodemus, "you must be born again". There is no doubt (and I am sure you agree), that certainly not everybody who makes a claim of being worthy of Redemption, is actually "born again". May I suggest that there are those that are "intellectually saved", that is their soul which is their attribute of behaviour and thought accepts that they are "In Christ". I would suggest that some of these have substituted their perception of works, for being "born again". The difficulty of anyone who uses the definition of their own works for determining born again status, is that this is contrary to the Scriptures. Based on me, and me alone, I have seen all kinds of things removed from my behaviour over the last several years. To me, this changed life means that the Holy Spirit is sanctifying me, hence I have been "born again", and I am "In Christ", and accept by Faith that I am worthy to be Redeemed before the Tribulation starts. May I be bold, and suggest to you that not only is confession of Sin, as in 1John 1:9 ,and washing by the Blood of the Lamb, as in Titus 3:5 the sanctification of the Believer who is "In Christ", but also the evidence of a changed life, such as I have described. I discern that the undeniable evidence of worthiness to be Redeemed before the Tribulation is the changed life, of which confession of sin is a part.

Would you consider expanding your doctrine to include this, rather than only confession of sin as an attribute of worthiness? Grace and Peace

My reply

> > that I have not been able to rule out "church" being an assemby. Assembly does not imply that all in the assembly are "In Christ". I think you would agree with me that any who are "In Christ" would be worthy of Redemption before the start of the Tribulation.

If you mean being worthy of being caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture, I don't expect every person who is in Christ to be included. He spews out of his mouth the foolish Laodiceans.

There is the true church (called out ones), not confined within physical walls, made up of saved believers, people in Christ, anywhere in the world. Collectively, they are the Body of Christ. Then there is the local church group that assembles themselves together to worship the Lord, to learn more about the Bible, and to bring as many as possible to a saving belief in Christ through an outreach program. When assembled for worship, there may be some in attendance that have not yet accepted Christ. That's why an altar call is given, to encourage those to make a firm decision to accept Christ.

The true Body of Christ worldwide is made up of all believers, both carnal and spiritual Christians. Both are in Christ. Both are called, but to be caught up in the 1st Rapture, it looks like we must be called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17:14 is right after the Rapture, and it says, "they that ARE with him (Christ) ARE called, and chosen, and faithful." In Mt. 22, we see that "both bad and good" are at a wedding dinner, but "a man which had not on a wedding garment" was cast into the darkness outside the door. "For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen." To make sure we are chosen, we need to figure out what we have to do to be wearing a wedding garment.

Rev. 19:7,8 tells us about the wedding garment. It says, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife HATH MADE HERSELF READY. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (lit., righteousnesses) of saints." Literally, this seems to include both the righteousness of Christ imparted to us when be accept him and our righteous acts.

R.B. Thieme thinks that for our acts to count, we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit at the time. He cites I Cor. 13:1-3. It says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (agape, the highest kind of love, God's love), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." 1Jo 4:8 says, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

I don't think of my thoughts as my doctrine. When I find something stated plainly in the Bible, that is doctrine, and not mine. However, my thoughts at this moment are on what Peter said. We are to add these things to our faith. II Peter 1:4-11 says, "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

We should all strive to enter in at the strait gate. Lu 13:24 says, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Agape

   Pro and Con 859   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110

© 1996-2001, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 1-17-02