Pro and Con 859

Posted 1-19-02

http://www.debka.com/
An Israeli Submarine Took Part in Capture of Karine-A

Karine-A’s Palestinian Captain Akawi Handed Israeli Frogmen’s Commander Documents Signed by Arafat for Illegal Weapons Cargo
...When all the boarding party was in place, the naval commandos commander, Yossi, went up to Captain Omar Akawi, with whom he had a previous personal acquaintance, and told him what was happening in Arabic. Akawi responded by offering to cooperate. He guided the assault team to the cargo of weapons crates and containers. He then took Yossi and a group of Israel commandos up to his cabin, where he handed over a pile of documents relating to the ship and its weapons cargo. Some of the documents were signed personally by Yasser Arafat and bore the official seals of the Palestinian Authority....
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Headline: Arafat Possible Early Target of US Campaign
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Washington Wants a “Northern Alliance” for the Mid East DEBKAfile’s sources see strong pointers to Yasser Arafat becoming one of America’s first anti-terror objectives.

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go to Astronomy Picture of the Day:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

"Saturn & Vesta in Taurus" is a lovely photograph, which shows that "below Aldebaran is main-belt asteroid, Vesta, which is heading for a close alignment or conjunction with Saturn on March 19th."

The photo also shows the beautiful Pleiades and Hyades. Pleiades, according to Bullinger, means "the congregation of the judge or ruler" and Hyades means "the congregated."

The day draws ever closer for us, who are watching and praying to be accounted worthy to escape. Much love

My reply

Thanks. The two congregations remind me of the two Raptures. In Argo (the company of travelers), there used to be two ships. Agape

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Re: When is Saturn a morning star this spring?
thanks for thinking of me in sharing this information. (see P & C 858) Isn't that amazing! It's the kind of news that makes me edge forward in my seat and straighten my shoulders in anticipation that this Pentecost could really be IT!!! Loving His appearing

My reply

"IT!!!" I hope so.

I just went to "Your Sky" and checked where Saturn would be on 9-13-07. I knew it would be in conjunction with Regulus (meaning The Treading Underfoot) the King star in Leo, but I didn't remember that it will be right on it. The picture is perfect.

That is the day I think Christ will be crowned with his golden crown and be given his kingdom, the day I think he will marry his bride. One of the stars in Leo is Denebola. It means the judge or Lord who comes quickly. It is a good time for the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Of course, it is more than even that. It is when I think the "LION of the tribe of Juda (Yeshua, Jesus), the Root of David" (i.e., YHVH king of Israel) of Rev. 5:5 will cause the 7 trumpet judgments to hit Earth. It is when I think "The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, ROAR; he shall prevail against his enemies" (Isa. 42:13).

Before the ROAR, v. 10 says, "Sing unto the LORD A NEW SONG." The 144,000 Israelites (Rev. 14:3-5) sing it on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. After the ROAR, v. 25 mentions "the fury of HIS ANGER." That fits the Day of God's Wrath. After that, in chapter 43, the chosen nation is restored.

Verses 10 and 11 say, "Ye are my witnesses, SAITH THE LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE (YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer, Yeshua, Jesus Christ, Son of David): before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD (YHVH); and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR."

Isa. 44:6 follows it up with, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I (YHVH King of Israel) am the first, AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD."

That day when he ROARS, Israel will finally understand. The nation will be born in a day--THAT DAY (Isa. 66:8). Those will live on into the millennial Day of the Lord that starts with the Day of His Wrath.

Jer. 25:30 says, "Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD SHALL ROAR FROM ON HIGH, AND UTTER HIS VOICE FROM HIS HOLY HABITATION (I think it's on Saturn), HE SHALL MIGHTILY ROAR UPON HIS HABITATION; HE SHALL GIVE A SHOUT, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth."

Rev. 14:18,19 agrees. Right after the Tribulation saints are harvested and taken to HIS HABITATION , it says, "Thrust in thy sharp SICKLE, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe....and cast it into the great winepress of the WRATH OF GOD."

Oh how I wish the Jews could see how the Tanakh (OT) and the B'rit Hadashah (NT) agree.

Joel 3:13-16 says, "Put ye in the SICKLE, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the DAY OF THE LORD is near (it starts at 6 PM) in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall ROAR out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens (atmospheric) and the earth shall shake (the worldwide earthquake when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 hit): but the LORD will be the hope of his people (sounds like the 2nd Rapture is the hope of the Tribulation saints), and the strength of the children of Israel."

This all fits so well the day when Saturn occults Regulus in Leo, the last sign in the Zodiac. Surely this is one of the things hinted at when, in Gen. 1:14, God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for SIGNS, and for seasons, and for days, and years." Talk about long-range planning. Think how long ago the Lord had to have planned this, and how patient he is to wait until everything is just right. Agape

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Re: Heaven found
I am not certain that heaven is actually Saturn, though it could be if it is in the physical realm, but I am certain you have seen the correct symbol of heaven. It is certainly the most beautiful of planets. My bet it is a representation. The real one will be even more spectacular.

Look at the description of New Jerusalem but it is clearly not Saturn because we are told its size. It looks the same, however. Equal dimensions height, width, and depth. Not a cube for God has never made anything that looks like a stone cut with human hands, but a sphere. The wall, then, appears at the equator and the thickness of the wall is 200' but we are not told its height, but that it has multiple colored foundations (rings). "Like transparent gold" is gold light. "Like a pearl" is a translucent light in a field of clear light. The shapes of the gates are not described, but they would be in the wall. Might they be the gaps in the rings. How many rings in Saturn?

Note also, that this coincides with Ezekiels vision except for its great size. The wheels within the wheels are the rings which moved in different directions. The reason for the four faces that do not turn as the moved is that it is showing that this vehicle does not turn (or rotate since it is circular) it simply changes directions with 90 degree angles. This is very significant because it shows that it is spiritual, not matter, or at least defies the law of motion. It is impossible for a body in motion to chang directions without turning. I notice this is a characteristic of some of the UFO reports: instant 90 degree changes in direction.

Note that the bible gives us two witnesses of this, the OT and the NT. The rings could not be seen by the naked eye. They could only be revealed in the latter days, yet God's testimony was in the Bible hundreds of years before the discovery of Saturn's rings.

I have spent no time on this. I just was thinking about it the other night and the description became clear. God has manifested Himself throughout his creation and has given us many signs.

I would appreciate your comments.

My reply

> > I am not certain that heaven is actually Saturn

I understand. I could have known years before I did. I found the verses that suggest Saturn many times, thought of it, and said, "Nah, it can't be." I talked myself right out of it. It seemed too easy, and I wondered why no one else had made the association? I'll never forget the day I looked up sapphire in my desk dictionary, Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary. I read "fr. Heb sappir, fr. Skt sanipriya, lit., dear to the planet Saturn, fr. Sani Saturn + priya dear." I blew softly and whispered to myself, "So it's true." A feeling like electricity ran all over me, standing the hair up on my arms.

Even then, I had to test it to see if it would really stand up to scrutiny. I read every Bible version I could get my hands on word for word, making notes on legal pad after legal pad. I put down every verse that pertained to the Lord's throne or heaven. When I finished, I knew it was true. I'm human and can certainly be wrong, but I don't expect to be wrong on this. I convinced myself, a big-time skeptic to begin with.

Paul was "caught up to the third heaven" in II Cor. 12:2. Where could that be? What are the possibilities? Mars, Jupiter, Saturn fits. Josephus, a Pharisee priest, said that the candlestick represented the "planets, including the Sun among them" (Ant. III. VI. 7). The western light was to always be kept lit, because it represented the Sun. Here is the lineup: (1) Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter and (7) Saturn. Remember that 7 is God's number of completion and perfection.

Psa. 89:35-37 says, "Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed (Jesus Christ) shall endure for ever, and his throne (Christ's throne) AS THE SUN before me. It (Christ's throne) shall be established for ever AS THE MOON, and as a faithful witness IN HEAVEN. Selah" (meaning pause and think of that).

In Psa. 78:68,69, the LORD "chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. And he built his sanctuary LIKE HIGH PALACES, LIKE THE EARTH which he hath established for ever." What high palace is "AS THE SUN," "AS THE MOON" and "LIKE THE EARTH"? Another sphere in this solar system?

How did he build his sanctuary "LIKE HIGH PALACES" (plural)? The cube called the Holy of Holies represented Heaven, the sphere that had the same kind of dimensions as a cube, the same length, width and height. When Jesus died, the veil was split from the top down, indicating that we now had access to Heaven. The Holy of Holies represented the 3rd Heaven, so the two cubes called the Holy Place represented the 1st heaven and the 2nd heaven. That's how he built his sanctuary "LIKE HIGH PALACES" (plural). These high palaces are "LIKE THE EARTH," a planet. What is the 3rd planet ("third heaven," II Cor. 12:2) from Earth? Isn't it the 7th planet represented by the candlestick? The 1st lamp represents the Sun. Earth is the middle lamp, the 4th. Saturn is the 7th.

> > Look at the description of New Jerusalem but it is clearly not Saturn because we are told its size.

I don't think it is Saturn either. The description of New Jerusalem seems very symbolic, but it seems to be a city that can descend out of Heaven and orbit Earth. Rev. 21:10 says, "he carried me away in the spirit to a great and HIGH MOUNTAIN (Heaven), and shewed me that great CITY, the holy Jerusalem, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God." Holy Jerusalem descends out of Heaven from God. She can't easily descend out of herself. "And the nations of them which are saved shall WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it" (Rev. 21:24). This city could very easily end up being "like the moon." Men on Earth will walk in the light of it. It looks like we will live in it during the Millennium. Rev. 3:12 says, "I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS NEW JERUSALEM, WHICH COMETH DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN from my God."

This Jerusalem is above the Earth. Gal 4:26 says, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Heaven is called "the mountain of God." Eze. 28:16 says, "By the multitude of thy (Satan's) merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of THE MOUNTAIN OF GOD: and I will destroy thee, O covering (guarding, Gen. 3:24) cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire" (from the middle of the planets, four of which are "like the appearance of lamps" in Eze. 1:13).

The original planetary lineup had 10 planets. Satan's planet Rehab was #5, in the middle. It was split in pieces and became our Asteroid Belt. The 10 are symbolized by precious stones in Eze. 28:13. Notice that #7 is "sapphire." In this lineup, the Sun is omitted and Satan's planet Rahab is included. The planets represented here are: (1) Mercury, (2) Venus, (3) Earth, (4) Mars, (5) Rehab, (6) Jupiter, (7) Saturn, (8) Uranus, (9) Neptune and (10) Pluto.

> > The wall, then, appears at the equator and the thickness of the wall is 200' but we are not told its height

How did you find out that the wall is at the equator and that it is 200' thick? I took the 144 cubits (144 x 18 * 12 = 216 feet) to be the length.

> > How many rings in Saturn?

Saturn has seven rings, actually seven groups of ringlets. Zech. 3:9,10 in the LXX says, "I bring forth my servant the Branch (Christ). For as for the stone (planet?) which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes (orbs, i.e., rings)." The planet is marked with God's number, 7.

> > Note also, that this coincides with Ezekiels vision except for its great size. The wheels within the wheels are the rings which moved in different directions. The reason for the four faces that do not turn as the moved is that it is showing that this vehicle does not turn (or rotate since it is circular) it simply changes directions with 90 degree angles. This is very significant because it shows that it is spiritual, not matter, or at least defies the law of motion. It is impossible for a body in motion to chang directions without turning. I notice this is a characteristic of some of the UFO reports: instant 90 degree changes in direction.

It doesn't mean 90-degree angles. It means that the terrestrial planets do not turn aside as they orbit facing each of the cardinal points of the compass. Being spheres, they rotate smoothly and face all four directions all the time as they orbit in concentric circles around the Sun.

It took me over 7 years to figure out Ezekiel's visions in chapters 1 and 10. I read scads of books from BIOLA's Seminary Collection those 7 years without finding one author that I thought knew what those visions represented. In desperation, I opened my Bible, put my hands on it and said, "Lord! you'll have to show me." After telling him I wanted to know everything he wanted man to know in the Bible, all the deep things--everything, I left man's words about the Bible alone and just used the Bible and Strong's Concordance. The first glimmer of understanding came when I decided to look up all the original words.

In Eze. 1:4, "brightness" is "nogahh," sunlight, so the "fire infolding itself" is the Sun. That is right in line with Ezekiel's opening statement, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God." These have nothing to do with a vehicle. He saw Christ on his throne in the heavens. His throne is farther out in space than the 4 orbiting terrestrial planets whose concentric orbits are the wheels within wheels. The throne of God is "as (symbolic language) the appearance of a sapphire stone (sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn). It is amber colored from the equator upward and from the equator downward. And it has "brightness ROUND about" (i.e., the bright ring system around the sphere of the amber colored planet Saturn).

Verse 15 says, "behold one wheel upon the earth." That wheel is Earth's orbit. If one of the four lively circling things is the Earth, the others are the other inner planets that do not turn aside from orbiting around all four directions. The four are (1) Mercury, (2) Venus, (3) Earth and (4) Mars.

Eze. 1:22 says, "the likeness (symbolic language) of the FIRMAMENT upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal (qerach, ice), stretched forth over their heads above."

In Gen. 1:7, we find out that the waters of Heaven are separated from the waters of Earth by an expanse of space called the firmament. In Eze. 1:22, this firmament stretches out beyond Mars all the way to the throne of the Almighty (Christ, Rev. 1:8) that has ice crystals orbiting around it.

These ice crystals act like prisms reflecting the "nogahh," sunlight, causing the "brightness round about" to be seen in various colors. In Rev. 4:3, "there is a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald" (Judah's stone in the high priest's breastplate, linking the Lion of the tribe of Judah with the planet that has the rainbow around it). Agape

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Re: Historical Background of Saturn's Rings
This is very interesting. Note that the first time Saturn was seen to have rings was about the time the King James bible was being translated. The gospel was beginning to be revealed as Saturn was being to be revealed. Note that any resemblance to Ezekiel or Revelation could not be discerned until very recently. This fits Daniels prophesy that knowledge would be increased. This includes knowledge of the scriptures since there is much that was sealed until the end. It wasn't needed earlier.

Certainly God has made Himself known thoughout creation, in every area, in every way. Surely this is one. We have now seen Saturn very clearly but cannot see beneath its clouds. We can now see the vision of Ezekiel and John, but cannot see inside.

Another sign that we are clearly in the final moments.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/saturn/back.html#1600

My reply

Thanks. I've never seen anything like this interesting history of man's growing knowledge of the ring system of Saturn.

> > Another sign that we are clearly in the final moments.

I hadn't tied this in, but you're right. Wasn't it Voyager that we sent right through the Cassini gap? Voyager got a fantastic picture of Saturn from an angle that we had never seen before. It almost looked like a huge flashlight in the sky. Saturn's shadow blanked out the brightness of the rings in that area.

I found this at the URL: "1970 - Measurements of the spectra of the rings in the near infrared strongly indicates the presence of water ice, which also indicates the surface of the ring particles is predominatey water ice." It ties in with Genesis 1's water above the firmament. As usual, God gets it right when man doesn't even have a clue yet.

This ice helps us understand Rev. 4. Verse 6 says, "before the throne (of the first and last, YHVH king of Israel and YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer, Isa. 44:6; Rev. 1:17; 22:13) there was a SEA OF GLASS like unto crystal (krustallos, ICE)." We know that this is the throne of the first and the last for "he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (first stone in the High Priest's breatplate) and a sardine stone (last stone in the breastplate): and there was a rainbow (Saturn's rings) round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald" (Judah's stone in the breastplate) (Rev. 4:3). The group that stands before the throne at this time were caught up to Heaven (Saturn) at the Pre-Trib Rapture. They sing the new song in Rev. 5:9.

The Tribulation saints caught up to the throne later are those of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb. Rev 15:2,3 says, "I saw as it were a sea of glass (hualinos, transparency) mingled with fire (from the reflected sunlight on the ice crystals): and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass (hualinos, transparency), having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

Now, we can better understand Psa. 104:1-3. It says, "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain (the 10 widths of the tabernacle curtain represented the 10 original planets): Who layeth the beams of his chambers (i.e., Saturn) in the waters (the crystal sea of ice): who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh (halak, whirls) upon the wings of the wind." Agape

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From: Finland
Re: 911 thoughts
Noticed an error in the list I sent (of Saturnrises) 2001 figure - about 4,39 is right. It is difficult to say if this time has a real significance - it may have because Bible describes so carefully directions and facts about Temple and East - that is the direction that Saturn (and other Planets) rise from. It is also difficult to establish what is the exact time when a planetary body can be said to have risen above horizon (except you go and see when it is visible). Evidently next year Saturnrise (don´t know exact Pentecost date) takes place daytime.

I trust your view that Babylon will be in Babylon. New York is The Stock Exchange and UN "Capital" of the World. Evidently something will happen to N.Y. to make the move necessary. Very much have to happen before Church, UN, (and Stock Exchange?) will move to Iraq. One would rather think that after US the next locigal place would be London, Paris or Berlin. If also pope leaves Rome this could imply that NOT ONLY US IS BADLY HIT, BUT ALSO EUROPE IS EITHER HIT OR UNSAFE! During Tribulation, Bible says (not verbatim) that people will rise against people. As there has been wars trough recorded history, this could refer to a new height of warfare - a fift column within leading democracies might start a guerilla / terrorist war from within. I think what happened in N.Y. was a prelude to this kind of devastating war. Western countries could have stopped these events dead long ago if they would have stood aside Israel - instead they more or less understood all kind of terrorism because they were not ready to take a stand against OPEC.

Now this "liberal" policy will pay dividends. All western (Christian) democracies are next in line of fire of the terrorists. Probably in the second year of Tribulation these "internal wars" will really blossom.

This might explain why Iraq could be a good harbour for OWG, UR etc. - There would not be any fifth column inside. One can understand why US. governmet and other Western democracies will not publicly admit even the possibility of this kind of developement - yet one day they will have to face the facts, but it will probably be too late. Agape

My reply

Thanks for figuring Saturn's time of rising. BTW, Pentecost is June 6 and 7 in 2003.

I don't know what will cause the UN and UR to move to Babylon, Iraq. It could be simply that the OWG will need expanded quarters for an expanded operation. They may set up fairs where countries could showcase their wares and buyers could see more selections before placing orders. It seems that the UN expanded military would need more space too.

With sky scrapers, elevated trains and subways, New York is already tightly packed, especially when compared to Babylon. I have wondered if they would move the UN to Babylon so the World Trade Center could take over their old quarters in New York. There must have been lots of scrambling for new spaces after the WTC towers fell. Rebuilding has not started yet. Just getting the rubble out of there has been a monumental task. Last I heard, they were still removing it from the basement areas. Agape

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