Pro and Con 863

Posted 1-28-02

Al Qaeda joining Arafat's sacred cause--to destroy Israel

As revealed by DEBKA Net Weekly, Damascus has become home to the largest concentration of al Qaeda personel outside of Saudi Arabia. Groups of them are in Lebanon, Syria and Gaza. This is on top of the other terrorist groups headquartered in Damascus.

That may have something to do with Isa 17's dire warning. It says, "Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap....At that day (Day of God's Wrath) shall a man look to his Maker, and his EYES shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f)....there shall be desolation. BECAUSE THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE GOD OF THY SALVATION, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength...the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow (Tishri 1, Feast of Trumpets; Joel 2:1-3). Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! THE NATIONS SHALL RUSH LIKE THE RUSHING OF MANY WATERS: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off,and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us."

Luke 21:25 says, "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (astrois, constellations); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30) coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your REDEMPTION draweth nigh."

The Pre-Trib Rapture is before the bulk of these things come to pass. Rom 8:23, says, "ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, to wit, the REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY."
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"DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s sources report that the instant the Palestinian leader learned of the al Qaeda arrivals, he ordered the head of his Fatah faction in south Lebanon, Sultan Abu al-Inan, to approach them with an offer of operational cooperation and a US$5,000 cash award for every fighter willing to go to the West Bank or Gaza Strip and enlist with the Palestinians to fight Israelis.

"Between 80 and 100 al-Qaeda fighters took up the offer...

"Yasser Arafat, like Osama bin Laden, has drafted a testament enjoining every Arab, and not just Palestinians, to fight on until Israel is destroyed...."

"This information provided the fodder for the first briefing to be delivered by the incoming Israeli military intelligence chief, Major-General Aharon Zeevi (Farkas), to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on Sunday, January 20. Arafat, he assured the lawmakers, will carry on the war against Israel regardless of the most sweeping concessions: even if Israel pulls back to the pre-1967 boundaries, gives up Jerusalem to be capital of Palestine, hands him all the holy places and recognizes the 1948 Palestinian refugees’ right to return to their former homes inside Israel, nothing will avail....

"Two days after Israel’s seizure of the Karine-A arms ship on January 3, Israeli chief of staff Lt. Gen. Shaul Mofaz hinted to reporters at a mysterious halt the vessel was to have made before entering the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean...our sources point to a small Red Sea bay near the point where the Saudi and Jordanian borders meet. There, under cover of darkness, the Karine-A was to have dropped a large part of its weapons freight for transfer to followers of Arafat’s Fatah group in Jordan’s Palestinian refugee camps....

"Had the Israeli navy not seized the ship in time to prevent it reaching land, its cargo would have reached Palestinian hands and posed a real threat to King Abdullah....

"In addition to the signs of Arafat’s attempts to subvert the Jordanian throne, DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s sources have picked up similar indications of the Palestinian leader’s forays into troublemaking against the Egyptian government....

"Mubarak has been briefed by intelligence chiefs on Arafat’s instructions to his agents in Egypt to incite religious riots...Mubarak broke off contact with the Palestinian leader....

Arafat said, "We are all in rapid motion towards laying down our lives in the sacred cause." ---
Missile Launchers Moved to PA Cities
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=17141&PHPSESSID=575c284b3f2e0e10d663bd56f536cdb4
The PA is getting ready to take its war against Israel a step further....

IDF officers told Ha'aretz that the terrorists are expected to start firing the rockets in the coming days. Prime Minister Sharon said last week that such use of the missiles would be the "crossing of all red lines."
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War only way for Palestinians — Hizbollah http://www.jordantimes.com/Sun/news/news6.htm
Jordan Times - BEIRUT (R) — The leader of Lebanon's Hizbollah resistance group said on Friday negotiations with Israel had achieved nothing for the Palestinians and they now had no alternative but violence to regain their lands.

Incoming e-mail

Re: After the Winter Rains come Spring...then suddenly?
I like your steadfastness. Surely, He is coming quickly! Your Crown for Watching has grown to be most deserving.

I love your comments of your last procon861. "We are the spiritual temple of the Lord, and I Kings 6:1 says, "in the FOURTH YEAR of Solomon's (son of David's) reign over Israel, in the month Zif (or Iyar), which is the second month, that HE BEGAN TO BUILD THE HOUSE OF THE LORD." The temple was begun IYAR 2. Second Chron. 3:2 says, "he began to build in the second day of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign." That will be Sunday, April 14, 2002. Think about Song of Solomon 2:10-14. It says, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone." Winter will be over March 21, and the latter rain of Nisan will be over. The migrating turtledoves arrive in Israel in April, and they are heard in the land in the Song. Iyar 2 will be a day to watch as well as Ascension Day (May 7) and Pentecost (May 17,18)."

It is so wonderful after having "entered into His rest" to be able to discern the "signs of the times" and see the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy happening before our eyes. "Now, ain't God wonderful?" as Texans say! My prayers are for all your readers, that they too may know Him and are found in His "rest" of the understanding of His Word and the Hope of His calling towards His saints. May they "See" and "Hear" His Word brought to "light" through your Web site even while there seems yet to be a "little" time remaining. May they too be an Epistle, a rock and a pillar to those around them by keeping the saying of the prophecy of Jesus Christ while the "time is at hand".

Now unto Him that is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING joy, to the only wise GOD (YHVH), our Saviour (Jesus Christ), to be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever, Amen (Jude 24, 25). Shalom, Marilyn!

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

Tonight, I got down to the nitty gritty and numbered the actual days from Nisan 16, Christ's Resurrection Day (March 29, 2002, Ed's birthday) on the Jewish Calendar. The 40th day, CHRIST'S ASCENSION DAY, is Iyar 26 (May 8). The 50th day, PENTECOST, is Sivan 7 (May 18), the 2nd day of Pentecost. I think this is the correct way to count the Omer, but some will pick May 7 and 17. Those skies will be almost the same as these, with the exception of the fast moving Moon.

Out of curiosity, I went to "Your Sky" again. Checking these and surrounding dates, I found that May 8, ASCENSION DAY, HAS THE MOST INTERESTING SKY. At 9:00:00 UTC, there are 6 planets, the Sun and Moon strung out along the ecliptic. Jupiter is in Gemini. VENUS, MARS AND SATURN LOOK LIKE THEY ARE PILED DIRECTLY ON TOP OF EACH OTHER in the middle of Taurus. This means that Venus, Earth, Mars and Saturn are lined up in space. I hope someone will be able to figure out how often that happens. Mercury is kissing the pileup to boot. The Sun is in Aries, the Moon in Cetus, with Uranus in Aquarius.

There was some very good reason that Jesus ascended on the 40th day. It would be nice if we ascended on the 40th day too. Song of Solomon 2:10-14 would fit either Ascension Day or Pentecost.

On May 18, Sivan 7, PENTECOST, there is a lineup of heavenly bodies. The Moon is in Cancer. Jupiter is in Gemini. Five heavenly bodies are in Taurus, Venus and Mars are overlapping; Saturn and Mercury are kissing with the Sun closeby. Uranus is farther away, in Aquarius.

April 14, Iyar 2, WHEN SOLOMON BEGAN TO BUILD THE TEMPLE, has a string. Saturn and Mars are in Taurus. Venus, the Moon and Mercury are in Aries. The Sun is in Pisces. Uranus is in Aquarius. Neptune is in Capricorn. Shalom and agape

Incoming e-mail

Re: Could this be the endtime deception.
I read something the other day in the quarterly publication by Noah Hutchings with Southwest Radio Church that I found interesting. The article was titled "Opus Dei and America's most dangerous spy." It was about Robert Hannsen, the FBI agent arrested for spying for the Soviets from 1985 till January 1, 2001.

The article focused on "Opus Dei" a secret Catholic order which the Hannsen's were members of. There are only 80,000 members worldwide and inludes some very wealthy and influential members such as Clarence Thomas and Anthony Scalia with the Supreme Court and Louis Freeh, the director of the FBI. Also Pope John Paul II is a promoter of Opus Dei, and many members of the European government belong to Opus Dei.

Opus Dei preachments include the MIRICLE OF FATIMA which is also called the PEACE PLAN FROM HEAVEN. When the Islamic Moors invaded the Iberian Penisula at the beginning of the eight century, they named a city in Portugal after MOHAMMED'S oldest daughter, Fatima.

Reportedly on May 13, 1917, the Virgin Mary appeared to three children, and in a series of appearences to the same children and gave prophicies about future events that would transpire before there would finally be peace on earth. According to the sole survivor the revealation included information that Russia would spread terror among nations and persecute Christians. As the endtimes approached, Russia would fall, be converted and become a great power for peace in the world. ( Gorbechev is really pushing world peace ) The article suggested Hannsen was spying for Russia to help fulfill God's plan in the Fatima Prophecy. ( I want to say here I know this is Satan's workings and not of God)

The visions occured in 1917. The year General Allenby concurred Jerusalem from the Turk's. The city Mary chose to appear in is Fatima, named after Mohammed's daughter. It was on May 13th, which this year falls 4 or 5 days before Pentacost which is on May 17th and 18th.

What if the visions happened again on the anniversary date of May 13th 2002. Could this be the end-time deception that if it were possible would fool even the elect! I always have read that the deception would be immediately after the rapture, as a lie as to what happened to those raptured. Could it be before the rapture? The word "elect" sounds like a bride word anyway. This Islaam situation has a momentum going now that would take almost a miracle to stop. Maybe Mary (Satan) could mention the Mohammed connection with Fatima and and get the attention of the Islam group. The Laodician group would likely be fooled if it was a vision to the world, maybe even on the 6 o'clock news!

Something has to happen to stop the raical Islaamic movement before they will say "Peace and Safety" in my opinion. This is one way I could see this happening and wondered what you thought about this idea. Agape

My reply

> > What if the visions happened again on the anniversary date of May 13th 2002. Could this be the end-time deception that if it were possible would fool even the elect! I always have read that the deception would be immediately after the rapture, as a lie as to what happened to those raptured. Could it be before the rapture?

I don't think so. II Thess. 2:6-11 says, "now ye know what withholdeth (the Holy Spirit in us withholds) that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time (the Tribulation). For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let (Old English for who now hindereth will hinder), until he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY (at the Rapture). And then (AFTER THE RAPTURE) shall that Wicked (the False Prophet) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM that perish; because THEY received not the love of the truth, that THEY might be saved. And for this cause God shall send THEM strong delusion, that THEY should BELIEVE A LIE." Agape

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"Response to Marilyn Agee's Response on 1 Thess. 4:16,17"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2002/davidm126.htm
David McLeod (26 Jan)

Dear Marilyn, Thank you for your comments
(http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2002/marilyna122.htm) on my response
(http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2002/davidm114.htm) to Phil's post
(http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2002/philr111.htm).

I shared on the fact that 1 Thess. 4:16,17 came at the end of the Tribulation to show there will be an escape for those who must go through that time of testing. There are special promises for those who give their lives for Jesus and His Word but Jesus offers complete protection for those who don't as long as they continue to abide in Him.

After rethinking (at your suggestion) the verses in Rev. 20 concerning the "first resurrection" and its association with 1 Thess. 4:16,17, I am even more convinced that the "first resurrection" takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation.

A more literal translation of Rev. 20:4 reads, "And I saw thrones (of the Father and Christ and the 24 Elders), and they sat upon them, and judgement was given for them, even the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus...." It concludes, "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Verse 5 includes the words, "This is the first resurrection."

It is my conviction that the first resurrection is in reference to the "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus." You specifically state it is those who "sat upon the thrones" who partake in the "first resurrection" and that almost 7 years earlier.

You and I have a vastly different understanding of the "24 elders."

Some of your conclusions as quoted in red. "The other 23 elders were caught up with John in Rev. 4;1, making 24 elders in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. THE ELDERS ARE PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION." "The elders are the Representatives of the saints in the government of God. This group of saints, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9), are also in Heaven before the Tribulation begins in Rev. 6."

My understanding. The 24 elders are at the very top of God's government as seen both by their "crowns" and the "thrones" upon which they sit. David apparently patterned the divisions of the sons of Aaron for the "governors of the sanctuary, and governors (of the house) of God", 24 in all. God's government does not run all by itself. Just in this chapter we see the 4 Beasts (living creatures), the 7 Spirits of God (the archangels) as well as the 24 Elders. Besides these are the cherubims and angelic messengers and many other orders of angelic beings assigned to duties too numerous to elaborate. The 24 Elders are assigned to God's people on earth as seen by the "golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of the saints." Rev. 5:8. God at this point in time would not have as His closest council freshly glorified yet unexperienced humans.

What was John seeing? Jesus told him to, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter." Rev. 1:19. In this case John was writing of the things "which are."

The early texts differ for verses 9 and 10 of Rev. 5. The Rotherham translation is perhaps the closest literal translation.

Rev. 5: 9,10 And when he took the scroll the four-living creatures and the four-and-twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and bowls of gold full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open the seals thereof; Because thou wast slain and didst redeem unto God by thy blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and didst make them unto our God a kingdom and priest, and they reign on the earth.

Here we do not see the misdirection of using "us" to infer the 24 Elders had been "redeemed" by Jesus through His blood. The 24 Elders are not redeemed prodigal sons as are we. They are spirits mature beyond our imaginations, well qualified to be counselors to lower angelic orders who have been assigned to humans and their families, towns, cities and communities.

Let me mention a couple of things for you to consider.

You stated, "The other 23 elders were caught up with John in Rev. 4;1, making 24 elders in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6."

Yet John states in Rev. 1:9, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Unfortunately the Authorized translators left out the definite article before the word "tribulation." Why would they do that? It should read. "I John, who am also your brother, and companion in the tribulation...."

John is one of the "two witnesses" therefore he will be here for 1260 days beginning 3 and 1/2 days before the taking of the Bride of Christ. The beginning of their prophesying, 3 and 1/2 days before the 10th of Nisan in the year the Lord calls His Bride, will be a sign for us to watch for. 1260 days later, 3 and 1/2 days before the Day of Trumpets, they will lay down their lives for Jesus. On the Day of Trumpets they will lead the "dead in Christ" as they go to meet Jesus in the air.

You wrote, "If the 2nd Rapture is Mid-Trib (as you seem to think)...." I have never said or implied that there will be a "mid-tribulation" rapture. We have had discussions before on the fact that the Tribulation is to be 1260 days or 3 and 1/2 years long. I accept the Word supplied to us in the Revelation as to its length. Nowhere do we find a reference to a 7 year Tribulation, shortened or not. The 70th week of Daniel 9 has already seen fulfillment. There is to be a fulfillment in pattern however. The first 3 and 1/2 years are for warning and preparation (we may well be in that time beginning on Sept. 28, 2000). It is the 2nd 3 and 1/2 years beginning with the taking of the Bride of Christ, the Firstfruits (144,000 of Rev. 14), the "manchild" of Rev. 12 that Jesus referred to as the Great Tribulation.

We should be thanking Jesus (and I am) for the similarities we have in our understandings. They are hard to come by in this generation. I pray that the Lord through His Holy Spirit will continue to give us opportunities to share. I thank John for his willingness to serve the Lord through this web site and forum. I know the Lord will bless him for it. In Jesus, David McLeod, http://www.rapture.ws

My reply

> > The 24 elders are at the very top of God's government as seen both by their "crowns" and the "thrones" upon which they sit. David apparently patterned the divisions of the sons of Aaron for the "governors of the sanctuary, and governors (of the house) of God", 24 in all. God's government does not run all by itself. Just in this chapter we see the 4 Beasts (living creatures), the 7 Spirits of God (the archangels) as well as the 24 Elders. Besides these are the cherubims and angelic messengers and many other orders of angelic beings assigned to duties too numerous to elaborate. The 24 Elders are assigned to God's people on earth as seen by the "golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of the saints." Rev. 5:8. God at this point in time would not have as His closest council freshly glorified yet unexperienced humans.

All who are caught up in the1st Rapture actually wear crowns. Rev. 3:10,11 (Rotherham)says, "Because thou didst keep my word of endurance, I ALSO, WILL KEEP THEE OUT OF THE HOUR OF TRIAL, WHICH IS ABOUT TO COME upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that, no one, take thy CROWN." The trial comes upon the whole world after the Pre-Wrath Rapture. If the only Rapture was at the end of the Tribulation, as you believe, the 12 apostles (your 'freshly glorified yet unexperienced humans') would be seated on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Mt 19:28 (Rotherham) says, "Jesus, said unto them—Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." I don't think we can apply our defective human reasoning to decide for sure what God would do, when we have Scripture to go by. It is a more sure word.

> > What was John seeing? Jesus told him to, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter." Rev. 1:19. In this case John was writing of the things "which are."

Rev. 4:1 says, "things which must be hereafter" so the "things which thou hast seen" are in Rev. 1 and the "things which are" are in Rev. 2 and 3.

Rev. 1:20 (Rotherham) says, "The sacred secret of the seven stars, which thou sawest upon my right hand, and the seven lamps of gold:—The seven stars, are, messengers of the seven assemblies, and, the seven lamps, are, seven assemblies." Overcomers of the seven assemblies were around Christ in Heaven in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:10-16. They were there BEFORE John was told any of the "things which must be hereafter" in Rev. 4:1.

> > You stated, "The other 23 elders were caught up with John in Rev. 4;1, making 24 elders in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6."

> > Yet John states in Rev. 1:9, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Unfortunately the Authorized translators left out the definite article before the word "tribulation." Why would they do that? It should read. "I John, who am also your brother, and companion in the tribulation...."

It doesn't mean The Tribulation. It just means persecution. The word translated "tribulation" is thlipsis, PERSECUTION. If I remember right, John was in exile on Patmos because he was persecuted by the emperor Domition. He was well acquainted with persecution. He was the last apostle alive. He knew how they were persecuted and how they died. Let's look at what some other translators thought "thlipsis" meant.

(ISV) "I am John, your brother and partner in SUFFERING, ruling, and enduring because of Jesus. I was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony about Jesus."

(LITV) "I, even your brother John, and co-sharer in the AFFLICTION, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, came to be in the island being called Patmos because of the Word of God, and because of the witness of Jesus Christ."

(NAB) "I, John, your brother, who share with you the DISTRESS, the kingdom, and the endurance we have in Jesus, found myself on the island called Patmos because I proclaimed God's word and gave testimony to Jesus."

(WEB) "I John, your brother and partner with you in OPPRESSION, kingdom, and perseverance in Christ Jesus, was on the isle that is called Patmos because of God's Word and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

(WNT) "I John, your brother, and a sharer with you in the SORROWS and Kingship and patient endurance of Jesus, found myself in the island of Patmos, on account of the Word of God and the truth told us by Jesus."

(WEY) "I John, your brother, and a sharer with you in the SORROWS and Kingship and patient endurance of Jesus, found myself in the island of Patmos, on account of the Word of God and the truth told us by Jesus."

> > John is one of the "two witnesses" therefore he will be here for 1260 days beginning 3 and 1/2 days before the taking of the Bride of Christ. The beginning of their prophesying, 3 and 1/2 days before the 10th of Nisan in the year the Lord calls His Bride, will be a sign for us to watch for. 1260 days later, 3 and 1/2 days before the Day of Trumpets, they will lay down their lives for Jesus. On the Day of Trumpets they will lead the "dead in Christ" as they go to meet Jesus in the air.

You are the very first person I have ever heard say that "John is one of the "two witnesses".

Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." This refers to Zech. 4:11-14. It says, "What are these two olive-trees, upon the right of the lampstand, and upon the left thereof? And I responded a second time, and said unto him,—What are the two branches of the olive- trees which join the two golden tubes, which empty out of them the golden oil? And he spake unto me, saying, Knowest thou not what these are? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These, are the two Anointed Ones,—who stand near the Lord of all the earth." Moses and Elijah stood near Jesus at the Transfiguration.

> > Nowhere do we find a reference to a 7 year Tribulation, shortened or not. The 70th week of Daniel 9 has already seen fulfillment.

The 70th week of Daniel cannot have already been fulfilled, because when it is over, at "the consummation", "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (desolator)." That is the Day of God's Wrath that will come at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation.

The 7 years are Israel's 5th cycle of discipline. The Lord said, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in FURY; and I, even I, will chastise you SEVEN TIMES (7 years) FOR YOUR SINS." De. 4:30 says, "When thou art in TRIBULATION, and all these things are come upon thee, even IN THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God..."

> > There is to be a fulfillment in pattern however. The first 3 and 1/2 years are for warning and preparation (we may well be in that time beginning on Sept. 28, 2000). It is the 2nd 3 and 1/2 years beginning with the taking of the Bride of Christ, the Firstfruits (144,000 of Rev. 14), the "manchild" of Rev. 12 that Jesus referred to as the Great Tribulation.

So, in your way of thinking, the Rapture takes place BEFORE the Tribulation. Fine. It does. The only difference is in the length of the Tribulation. So you are a Pretribulationist after all. So am I.

John is sure doing his part faithfully in this work for the Lord. He deserves all our praise. Agape

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