Pro and Con 864

Posted 1-31-02

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RE: image of famous Horsehead Neb
I thought you might like this!!!!! Extraordinary new image

I love you,SIS :)from me...!!! OOOOXXXXoooxxxxXXXXXooooXXX love,me, your friend & sister4life

My reply

Thanks. When I saw that Horsehead Nebula, I was amazed at how closeup it seemed and that it looks like the rear and back legs of the horse are there too, as if the horse was going away from us and turning its head. Not only is it the most distinctive dark nebula in the heavens, it's in Orion, the most easily recognized constellation. It can even be seen from both northern and southern hemispheres.

Orion means ONE COMING FORTH AS LIGHT. That's Christ. The star Betelguez in the right shoulder means THE COMING OF THE BRANCH. Can't make a mistake there. Christ is called the branch in the Bible. Zec 6:12 says, "speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD." Another star is Bellatrix, meaning QUICKLY COMING, as when Jesus signed off in Rev. 22:20. He said, "Surely I come quickly." It all ties together. He comes quickly at the Rapture too (Rev. 2:5; 3:11).

Orion is a decan of Taurus, where Saturn is now. Saturn is just about even with the boundary of Orion, but above it. Jupiter is straddling the border of Gemini and Taurus, above Orion. Part of the outline of the area of the sky assigned to Taurus looks like a boot lying on its side. Taurus is thought to stand for judgment, and Italy looks like a boot. hmmm.

The dark horse is silouetted against IC434, a bright nebula extending south of Zeta Orionis, in the belt of Orion. The belt is very interesting in itself. Attached to it is the sword. On its hilt is the figure of a lamb, showing that Orion definitely stands for Christ and this sword stands for the Sword of the Lord that will be used on the Day of Destruction at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. The type in Jdg 7:18 says, "When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, THE SWORD OF THE LORD, and of Gideon." Agape

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Pope Urges New Push in Catholic-Jewish Relations
VATICAN CITY 1-29-02 ( "...the different religious traditions are called to place their patrimony at the service of all, in the hope of building the common European home together, in justice, peace, equality and solidarity," John Paul II adds.
PARIS 1-29-02 ( At the first summit of its kind of leaders of Catholicism and Judaism, a Jewish speaker described John Paul II as "the Pope of reconciliation" between members of the two faiths.
"I am confident that these efforts, carried out in communion with other particular Churches and the See of Peter, will help to overcome the difficulties of the past, so that ever-new opportunities for dialogue and reciprocal human and spiritual enrichment may arise," the Holy Father said...

My comments

I wonder if the "common European home" will end up at Babylon. The "See of Peter" reminds me of Rev. 13:1-3. It says, "I...saw a beast rise up out of the sea (the "see of Peter," called the Holy See?), having seven heads (kings of (1) Babel, (2) Babylon, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece, (5) Rome, (6) Ecclesiastical Rome, the Beast, and (7) the False Prophet)...and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (all 7 heads carry the title Pontifex Maximus, high priest of the Babylonian Mystery Religion). And the beast...his mouth as the mouth of a lion (symbol of Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads (#6, the Beast, Rev. 20:10) as it were wounded to death (the present Pope survived an assassination attempt); and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Rev. 18:21 might tie in. It says, "a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

The number 54 got my attention in some incoming mail. That would be 50 (the Jubilee Year, 1998) plus 4 (the number of years in the parable of the barren fig tree, Luke 13:6-9) equals 2002. That could be very significant.

I've been told that the Jews know their Tanakh (Old Testament). I wonder. How could anyone read the end time prophecies and not realize how they fit today's news? The Jew's only way out of their difficulties now is to turn to the Lord. Once the 70th week of Daniel begins, I see no way of stopping it's running to the Day of God's Wrath.

All Israel will be born on that day (Isa. 66:8), but look at all the terrible things that will happen on that first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. When Gog's army attacks Israel, God's fury will come up in his face (Eze. 38:18), and the globe itself will be turned upside down. Isa 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."

Eze 18:31 says to Israel, "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Eze 33:11: "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

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Re: manna
In the Sinai desert, it still continues to fall each morning. Tourist expeditions to the area gather it. It is a high point of the tour. Here is some info I found on manna and quails:

The Exodus from Egypt is followed by the covenant at Sinai. Various signs occurred en route from Egypt to Sinai, among them the manna and the quail. Manna is something like honey, a sweet, sticky substance, the product of insects that feed upon tamarisk bushes. It may be found in the Sinai peninsula today. It lies like dew on the ground in the early morning, but evaporates when the sun comes out, forming granules like sugar. The story of the quail reflects the migratory habits of these birds. After long flights, they fall to the ground utterly exhausted, so in fact they lie there at one's feet ready to be picked up. These may be natural phenomena--but to an ancient people, wandering without food in the desert, the manna and the quail they stumbled upon were signs of God's special care and providence for them.

My reply

Thanks for the information, but I don't really think that article has the right facts. Do you? It sounds like something written by someone that doesn't believe in miracles, so tries to explain them away. The manna wasn't a sticky substance. Ex. 16:31 says, "Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey." No natural bush could make enough food (an omer [6.7 pints] for each person per day, Ex. 16:16) to feed millions of people in the wilderness, summer and winter, for 40 years, then or now.

Num 11:7 also says "the manna was as coriander seed." Unger's Bible Dictionary says that coriander is the aromatic seed of Coriandrum sativum. Do you know what the Latin sativum means? Since manna was bread from Heaven, I'm surprised to see this associated word that reminds me of Saturn (Lat., Saturnus), which I think is Heaven. Agape

His reply

Re: manna
This is absolutely true. I have heard the same thing from many sources for years. The substance is an insect product, like honey. Bees gather nectar and turn it into honey. These insects gather material from these bushes and turn it into manna, a honey like substance. It is just as described in Ex 16:31. No flower could make enough honey to feed a person, but with the help of insects, nectar is turned into honey. So I think this description is genuine. Agape

My reply

Re: manna
I understand. I've heard this for years too, but it doesn't jibe with the Bible. One would have a hard time grinding a honey-like product in mills. Here is what Num 11:6-8 says, "the manna was as coriander SEED (zera, seed), and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium. And the people went about, and gathered it, and GROUND IT IN MILLS, OR BEAT IT IN A MORTAR, AND BAKED IT IN PANS, AND MADE CAKES OF IT: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil."

Here is what Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says about manna. It explains what natural products are confused with the wholly miraculous manna of the Bible. One is only produced in June and July.
Heb. man-hu, "What is that?" the name given by the Israelites to the food miraculously supplied to them during their wanderings in the wilderness #Ex 16:15-35 The name is commonly taken as derived from _man_, an expression of surprise, "What is it?" but more probably it is derived from _manan_, meaning "to allot, " and hence denoting an "allotment" or a "gift." This "gift" from God is described as "a small round thing, " like the "hoar-frost on the ground, " and "like coriander seed, "" of the colour of bdellium, " and in taste "like wafers made with honey." It was capable of being baked and boiled, ground in mills, or beaten in a mortar #Ex 16:23 Nu 11:7 If any was kept over till the following morning, it became corrupt with worms; but as on the Sabbath none fell, on the preceding day a double portion was given, and that could be kept over to supply the wants of the Sabbath without becoming corrupt. Directions concerning the gathering of it are fully given #Ex 16:16-18,33 De 8:3,16 It fell for the first time after the eighth encampment in the desert of Sin, and was daily furnished, except on the Sabbath, for all the years of the wanderings, till they encamped at Gilgal, after crossing the Jordan, when it suddenly ceased, and where they "did eat of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more" #Jos 5:12 They now no longer needed the "bread of the wilderness." This manna was evidently altogether a miraculous gift, wholly different from any natural product with which we are acquainted, and which bears this name. The MANNA OF EUROPEAN COMMERCE comes chiefly from Calabria and Sicily. It drops from the twigs of a species of ash during the months of JUNE AND JULY. At night it is fluid and resembles dew, but in the morning it begins to harden. The MANNA OF THE SINAITIC PENINSULA is an exudation from the "manna-tamarisk" tree (Tamarix mannifera), the el-tarfah of the Arabs. This tree is found at the present day in certain well-watered valleys in the peninsula of Sinai. The manna with which the people of Israel were fed for forty years differs in many particulars from all these natural products. Our Lord refers to the manna when he calls himself the "true bread from heaven" #Joh 6:31-35 48-51 He is also the "hidden manna" #Re 2:17 comp. #Joh 6:49,51.

Incoming email

...I really enjoy your website and your posts. Keep up the great work!...

Have you heard of a man by the name of Raymond Aguilera?...he occasional sends out emails regarding messages, visions and occurances he gets. Hes had over 1600+ messages since 1990 (earlier?). One prophecy he recieved sort of stands out in my mind. The year of the ram is next year according to the chinese calendar. Im not to certain about when the chinese new year actually begins, my guess is January sometime. There are a few other prophecies where raymond sees a nuclear explosion from a boat sailing into the San fransico bay. Anyways i was wondering if you had any insight on this or know anyone with the gift of confirmation. Blessings

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

I haven't heard of Raymond Aguilera. Actually, I'd rather spend my time in studying the Bible, which I know is right, than try to sort right from wrong that people like this come up with.

Raymond said, "you have to study the Bible. You have to pray everyday until you cannot walk or talk. In that way you can save yourself if you STAY in the World and don't go to Heaven with My Son."

It would be very hard to pray until you couldn't walk or talk. Rev. 7:14 says that the Tribulation saints "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They were already saved, but had robes spotted by the flesh, i.e., unconfessed sin that was not brought under the blood of Christ. They needed to use I John 1:9 and confess their sins committed since the accepted Christ so God could cleanse them of all unrighteousness. Agape

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Re: All this 12th planet stuff...
There's lots of confusion about the 12th planet and Planet X and Nemisis. There are a few enticing historical facts present that are just incomplete enough (at least with what we understand now) to prevent any sort of rigorous scientific (or logical) resolution. I think that when more facts are known there will be two objects: one that orbits far beyond Pluto and has an orbit slightly elliptical like Pluto's; an asteroid/comet/planet (the type of body is uncertain because so little is known about it yet) that has a highly eliptical orbit that is comet like and which is inclined 30 to 40 degrees from the orbits of the other planets, making its turn from inbound to outbound at the asteroid belt thus getting to pass the earth's orbital path twice each trip.

The first object is likely to be a brown dwarf and may be large enough to be described as a binary companion to the sun. It will orbit the sun but will never get near enough to earth to do all the things people ascribe to Nibiru. It probably will never even cross Pluto's orbit. This is likely to be Nemisis, the suspected binary companion, as described in the 1800's. This object will never exert enough gravitational influence on earth to have the earth stand still.

The second object's orbit may have been modified by the first one. And the second object probably isn't just a single object. It could easily be large enough to have moons in close orbit. This is the one most likely to be Sitchen's Nibiru (and Planet X fits this better than the binary companion).

He envisioned Nibiru as a planet with moons. It could also be a brown dwarf (with accompanying "planets" in tight orbits around it) that is in a complicated eliptical orbit having the sun at one foci and the first object at the second foci. If this is so, then the orbit will be different each trip because the first object is also orbiting the sun, not standing still.

The second object may, if it is a brown dwarf and passes within a couple of AU from earth from the "back side" of earth's rotation, have a direct gravitational influence on earth.

There are too many mentions of odd astronomical occurrances over the centuries for there not to be something real and scientifically understandable behind it all. But this is the first time in maybe thousands of years that enough people are asking questions and doing research on this matter. There will be lots of wild conclusions before the real answer is known.

Here are a couple of web sites that try to distill knowledge from the babble on this issue:

One of the areas of babble is the arrival time. If one is talking about object one above, the answer is "Never." If one is talking about object two above, the answer is mostly unknown but it probably isn't "2003" because there are so many observers now looking and they haven't yet found it and it just doesn't travel that fast even if in a complex orbit around two stars. If Sitchen's thoughts on timing are correct (or even close), then the answer is "3700-3800AD." There's some decent historical evidence that the last visit was between 12 BC and 25AD.

How does all this fit with scripture? There's no way to tell. There aren't enough facts in hand to begin responsibly looking for matches with Joshua's long day, the Transfiguration, the star of Bethlehem, and the asteroids of Revelation. Tantalizing, yes. Facts, no. When somebody insists the arrival date is 2003, just ask for the orbital coordinates and photographs from obervatories. Until those are available, everything is pure speculation.

My reply

Thanks for the information. I sure agree with your "everything is pure speculation." Agape

Incoming email

"I am so thankful that earlier, I had worked out a way to delete them safely myself without clicking on them to select them. W32.BADTRANS.B@mm.enc is the one that drops a file as soon as you click on it to select it. So, I knew I couldn't click on it to select and delete it."...

I have the NAV 2002, but have the MSN HOTMAIL. I am not sure if if scans incoming email for my system of not. I have written the NAV RE this question.

Thanks for posting all your information re these virus.

My reply

When I open Norton, the first screen lists:
Auto protect on
Email scanning on
Script blocking on

If it says it is scanning your email, I think it is doing it. Mine tells me that it is scanning my outgoing email, but doesn't say it is scanning incoming email. However, it is, because it told me which 2 emails were Badtrans viruses.

(I got both a Badtrans and a BadtransB virus again today. #1 said, "DM Berytus:Norton An..., Subject: Re:. #2 said, "Norton AntiVirus Email." Tricky! Someone is trying hard to trick us into clicking it so it can drop its file.)...

I found another virus warning. The e-mail worm is "My Party." The attachment has .com extension to fool people into opening it, thinking it is just a URL.
The Subject: new photos from my party.
Body: Hello! My party... It was absolutely amazing! I have attached my web page with new photos! If you can please make color prints of my photos. Thanks!

Incoming email

From: Finland. Re: Fig Tree
P/C 862 contains something about fig tree parable. Is it (the parable) not pointing to -67 war?
And to the beginning of the last generation? So how could it refer also to present situation? Agape

My reply

As some prophecies come to pass, other prophecies become clearer. As we examine things more carefully, we may turn up something we missed before. The fig tree parable in Luke 21 is enough like those in Mt. 24 and Mark 13 to take it the same way. However, instead of just the fig tree, it mentions all the trees. That's different. When THEY (all the trees, nations) shoot forth. That is different. In Mt. 24:32, the fig tree nation is young and IT puts forth leaves, not all the nations putting forth leaves. I want to examine all three again and see just how different the Luke account is.

I have always wondered why the fig tree parable in Luke is so different than those in Matthew and Mark. There has to be a good reason. I understand that "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa 28:13). I know that we have to compare all similar accounts to get the full picture.

In Mt. 24:3 the disciples asked Jesus "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (suntelias tou aionos, consummation of the age)?" The sign of his coming is the Sign of the Son of Man in verse 30. It will be seen in the sky 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13).

Rev. 6:14f shows us that this sign will be seen on the last day of this age, for in v. 17, "the great day of his wrath is come." The first day of the Millennium is the Day of God's Wrath.

On that same day, Mt. 24:31 tells us, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." These are the saints that were previously taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Up to here, Jesus has not told them how these saints got to Heaven. They will find out in the rest of the chapter.

"Now" in Mt. 24:32 announces a break in subject matter. Jesus will go on to answer the implied question, what is the sign of the end of the age. "Now," he said, "learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel grafted into her old rootstock) is yet tender (apalos, young, no more than 19 [as at the Exodus], which Israel was in 1967), and putteth forth leaves (grows, as in the Six-Day War of 1967), ye know that summer is nigh (the war began June 5, summer arrived June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Rapture, how the saints of v. 31 got to Heaven) is near, even at the doors (plural, symbol of the Raptures, Rev. 3:8). Verily (amen, i.e., this is important) I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." All these things include the gathering of the saints in Heaven (v. 30) as the age ends and the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord begins in 2007, 40 years after 1967.

The rest of the chapter deals with those "faithful and wise" servants of the Lord that will be taken and those evil servants of the Lord that will be left behind. The faithful and wise servant is made "ruler over all his goods" (24:47). The "evil servant" will be cut asunder and appointed "his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders)," He will weep and gnash his teeth. He thought he had it made, and he got left behind.

Luke 12:46 agrees. It says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his (THE FOOLISH BELIEVER'S) portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS."

As in Mt. 24:21,22, Jesus told about shortening the days (of the Great Tribulation) in the companion passage in Mark 13. Then he said something astonishing that he did not say in the account in Matthew 24. He said, "But take ye heed: behold, I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS." All the clues we need are all in Scripture. We need to compare like passages to get all the details.

In v. 26, he mentioned the Son of man coming. We put that together with Mt. 24:30 and find that this is the Sign of the Son of Man. We already know that this will be at the junction of the last day of this age and the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

In v. 27, Jesus gave the same information that we found in Mt. 24:31, but he expands it. He said, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." In Mt. 24:31, he told them that he would gather his saints from one end of Heaven to the other. Here, he adds that they will also be gathered from the uttermost part of the EARTH. This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Psa. 50:1-5 ties in. It says, "The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and CALLED the EARTH from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion (the heavenly one), the perfection of beauty, GOD HATH SHINED. Our God shall come (but not yet at the Second Advent), and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. HE SHALL CALL TO THE HEAVENS ABOVE (to gather the saints caught up in the 1st Rapture to the general assembly, Heb. 12:23), AND TO THE EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture), that he may JUDGE his people (at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven). GATHER MY SAINTS together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." Verse15 adds, "And call upon me in THE DAY OF TROUBLE (the Day of God's Wrath): I WILL DELIVER THEE, and thou shalt glorify me."

The parable of the fig tree in Mark 13:28-30 gives the same information as in Mt. 24:32-34. Most of the rest of the information in Mt. 24:37-51 is omitted in Mark. It ends with "watch ye therefore: for ye know not whan the master of the house COMETH, at even (6PM), or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing (3 AM), or in the morning (6 AM). Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Luke 21 is different from Mt. 24 and Mark 13. Jesus is talking to Peter, James, John and Andrew, as in Mk. 13:3, but he gives more information about what happened in the first century. In verses 20-24, Jesus said, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation (70 AD) thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance (the end of the 40 years for the iniquity of Judah, because she refused her King, Eze. 4:6), that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations (70 AD): and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." In the past, I thought this would be in 1967 or maybe when the 70th week of Daniel started, but this may last until the Day of God's Wrath.

Luke 21:25, 26, and 27 stairstep through time. Verse 25 is in our days. Verse 26 is in the Tribulation. Verse 27 is the Day of God's Wrath, when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky.

FROM SIGNS TO THE SIGN. Luke 21:25-27 says, "there shall be SIGNS IN THE SUN, AND IN THE MOON, AND IN THE STARS (astrois, constellations); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea (nations, Rev. 17:`15) and the waves roaring (we see this distress and unrest now); 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken (during the Great Tribulation). 27 And then (on the Day of God's Wrath) shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud (THE SIGN of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f) with power and great glory." The sign is 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13).

In verse 28, Jesus spoke to us, saying, "when these things (SIGNS IN THE SUN, MOON AND CONSTELLATIONS) BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH." This is the Pre-Trib Rapture and the redemption of the body. Rom. 8:23 says, "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Now, Jesus has our attention. We have already seen some signs in the Sun, Moon and constellations. Our redemption is NIGH. He is addressing the Bride of Christ in the latter days.

He gives us another parable of the fig tree, but it is not all like the ones in Matthew and Mark. In verses 29-32, he said, "Behold the fig tree (Israel), and ALL THE TREES(nations); When THEY (all the nations, not just Israel) now (after the signs in the Sun, Moon and constellations begin to come to pass) SHOOT FORTH (proballo, push at each other, i.e., war), ye see and know of your own selves that SUMMER (June 21) is now NIGH at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things (Israel and other nations at war) come to pass, know ye that the KINGDOM OF GOD IS NIGH at hand (i.e., the Rapture is at hand). Verily (amen, this is important) I say unto you, This generation (that we are living in--its mention refers us back to its beginning in 1967) shall not pass away, till ALL be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Luke 21:34,35 speaks to us today. Pay attention to "you" and "them." "You" applies to the wise Philadelphian virgins that are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. "Them" applies to those foolish Laodicean virgins left behind. It says, "take heed to YOURSELVES, lest at any time YOUR hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY (the Rapture) come upon YOU (the ones that saw the signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars) unawares. For as a snare (trap) shall it (the trial that shall come on the whole world, Rev. 3:10) come on all THEM that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

In verse 36, Jesus is still talking to YOU, and this is not in Mt. 24 or Mark 13. He says, "Watch YE therefore, and pray always, that YE may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE (via the Pre-Trib Rapture) all these things that SHALL (in the future, i.e., AFTER the Rapture) come to pass (in the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man."

In the Preview of the Rapture in Revelation 1, verse 13 shows Christ "in the midst of the seven candlesticks." Thus the raptured overcomers from the churches are around Christ. Agape

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