Pro and Con 865

Posted 2-2-02

"Saturn - Lord of the rings"
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0202/01eso/

The NAOS/CONICA image of Saturn, the second-largest planet in the solar system, was obtained at a time when Saturn was close to summer solstice in the southern hemisphere. At this moment, the tilt of the rings was about as large as it can be, allowing the best possible view of the planet's South Pole. That area was on Saturn's night side in 1982 and could therefore not be photographed during the Voyager encounter.

...observed with the VLT NAOS-CONICA Adaptive Optics instrument on December 8, 2001...
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Arafat Not Invited
http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=17514
Arafat also noted that another PA delegation was to leave yesterday for Davos, Switzerland, headed by Dr. Hanan Ashrawi. The occasion was the prestigious annual economic conference of international leaders, and what Arafat neglected to mention was that this was the first time in eight years that he had not been invited to attend.

Last year, Arafat took advantage of the Davos podium to, in the words of CNN, "launch a blistering verbal attack on Israel...

Incoming email

Re: Interesting Notion in Putin's Comments Looks like one-world government is being openly espoused. Here's a clip from one of today's Newsmax.com articles, quoting Russia's Putin, if you haven't seen it yet:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/31/203448.shtml

Quote from the article: (Think a remark like this one is spontaneous or impromptu?) "In Moscow Thursday, Putin referred to U.S. hegemony when he complained that global difficulties were "based on the domination of one center of force."

Putin said he wished American influence was replaced by "a truly fair international system, based on law and respect for the interests of each state, and capable of ensuring equal security for all nations."

It can't be long now. In light of the changes here in the U.S. in the name of 'security', we will soon have a National Identification card. Events like the Super Bowl, the World Trade Conference, etc. cannot continue to have the kind of security it place that we are seeing. It's too expensive. So, less costly (expense-wise) methods will likely be taken real soon, particularly if another terrorist attack occurs any time soon. The media is prepping us for it with the constant bombardment of warnings about 'more serious attacks' which are likely to occur. Rumsfeld is the latest to sound the warning. I think President Bush is buying into all of it, and has perhaps lost sight of the fact that "unless the Lord builds the house, they that build it labor in vain."

The only question now is what will trigger the final scenes: Rapture? War between Israel/Arabs? War between U.S. and Terror (Iraq/Iran/Saudi/N.Korea/etc)? Suitcase nuke in Washington?

It wouldn't take much to push most of the (unsaved) U.S. citizenry to sell their birthrights.

Fortunately, we know how the play ends. My Lord said: "Let not your hearts be troubled..." Shalom and God Bless

My reply

Thanks for the news. Stitch by stitch, this tapestry of end-time events is coming right along. The section that goes before the Rapture is nearing completion. Next will come the Tribulation, then the beginning of the Millennium.

Below is a surprising development. Agape
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Sharon Held Talks with Top Palestinian Officials, By Michele Gershberg
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020201/wl/mideast_dc.html

...Abu Ala was one of the three Palestine Liberation Organization (news - web sites) representatives who met secretly with Israelis in Norway to hammer out the Oslo accords which paved the way for the first interim peace deal between the two sides in 1993.

Abu Mazen signed the peace deal on behalf of the PLO.

Both have been touted as possible successors to Arafat....

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From: David McLeod Subject: "Endtimes in a Nutshell: Response to Marilyn Agee"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2002/davidm131.htm
Dear Marilyn, As I have said before I am encouraged by the fact that you teach there will be 2 raptures. For some reason you have yet to realize that is also my understanding. Yet there are a few differences which are very important. David McLeod Let me put it in as much of a nutshell as I can. David McLeod 1. Jesus is returning as promised to take unto Himself a Bride. Gen. 24:4 David McLeod 2. The Bride of Christ is described for us in a number of places in Scripture. Here are just a few.
a. Bride - Rev. 19:7-9
b. 5 wise virgins - Matt. 25:1-13
c. Firstfruits - Rev. 14:1-5
d. Manchild - Rev. 12:5
e. Jewels - Mal. 3:16-18

3. The taking of the Bride is simultaneous with the beginning of the Great Tribulation, the 10th of Nisan, in the not too distant future. Josh. 4:19

4. The Tribulation or Great Tribulation as it is called will last for 3 and 1/2 years or 1260 days. Dan. 7:25, Rev. 13:4,5

5. The Bride, Jesus' helpmate, will most probably be returning, and that on the 16th day of Nisan, just 6 days following her rapture. They will remain for 40 days comforting and teaching and preparing those who have been left behind, the vast majority of the Church. Mal. 3:18, Isa. 30:20,21

6. The Pentecost following will see a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon those who remain in the dwelling place of peace and in prayer in the "upper room." Joel 2:23

7. The 2 witnesses, whose ministry began 3 and 1/2 days before the Bride was taken, will continue to prophesy for 1260 days. Rev. 11:3

8. Although all out conflict in the Middle East will have already been raging even prior to the Firstfruit rapture, full scale world war will not begin until half way into the 3 and 1/2 year Tribulation. Ps 91:6, Ezek. 21:14

9. 3 and 1/2 days prior to the Day of Trumpets the 2 Witnesses will be killed and their bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem until the "Spirit of Life from God" enters into them on the Days of Trumpets. Rev. 11:7-12

10. This same day, the Day of Trumpets, the "Harvest" company (as well as the Dead in Christ) leave to meet Jesus in the air. This is the 2nd rapture. Rev 7:13-17, 1 Thess. 4:15-17

11. What follows are 2 weeks of judgement, the out-pouring of the Bowls of Wrath. Rev. 16

12. On the 15th of Tishri, the Feast of Tabernacles, Jesus completes His physical return stepping down on the Mount of Olives with such force the mountain splits towards the east and west. The shock wave of His physical return coupled with multiple nuclear explosions as the nations gone mad unleash their fury actually causes the earth itself to "reel to and fro" bringing the madness to an end. There by the Words of Jesus are fulfilled, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Zech. 14:4,5, Matt. 24:22

...Thanks Marilyn for your responses.
In Jesus, David McLeod, http://www.rapture.ws

My reply

That's a starting point, that we both can see that there are two Raptures. However, I think the Pre-Trib Rapture will precede the 70th week of Dan. 9:27. That is a week of years, 7 years. It is the 5th cycle of discipline for Israel. Lev 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will CHASTISE YOU SEVEN TIMES for your sins." A "time" can stand for a year, as it does in Dan. 7:25 and Rev. 12:6,14. These seven years are the same as the 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL and as THE TRIAL THAT WILL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD of Rev. 3:10.

At the beginning of the week of years, the False Prophet will "confirm (gabar, strengthen) the covenant with many (probably Israel, the Palestinians, the Pope and the UN) for ONE WEEK" (SEVEN TIMES, SEVEN YEARS).

In "the MIDST OF THE WEEK (after 3.5 years) he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." This desecration of the temple is after the 1260-day ministry of God's two witnesses (Rev. 11:3). Rev. 11:7 says, "And when they shall have FINISHED THEIR TESTIMONY (their 1260-day, 42-month or 3.5-year testimony), the beast (Satan) that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them" (Rev. 11:7).

The Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 rules during the first 42 months of the 70th week of Daniel (Rev. 13:5). Then when the two witnesses "have FINISHED THEIR TESTIMONY," Satan is "cast out INTO THE EARTH" (Rev. 12:9). He comes up out of the bottomless pit, enters into the False Prophet and heads for the temple. He demands worship, and the two witnesses will not worship him or his image. Therefore, he kills them.

This is the first day of the reign of the False Prophet at full power, i.e., after he is Satan possessed. Just as the Beast ruled 1260 days, the False Prophet will rule 1260 days. The only difference is that the Great Tribulation, the last 3.5 years) will be cut short or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:21,22).

The Beast's kingdom is different "from all kingdoms (the Beast is probably the Pope, head of the Roman Ecclesiastical Empire), and shall DEVOUR THE WHOLE EARTH" (Dan. 7:23). Rev. 13:agrees. Verse 7 says, "POWER WAS GIVEN HIM OVER ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS." I expect the Pope to be head of the One World Government for 3.5 years.

"ANOTHER (the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18) shall rise AFTER THEM (the 10 kings that are subordinate to the Beast); and he (the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18) shall be diverse (different) from the first (the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10), and he shall subdue three kings (of the 10 that ruled 3.5 years with the first Beast, Rev. 13:1). And he (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) shall speak great words against the most High (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and shall wear out the saints (Tribulation saints) of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they (the Tribulation saints) shall be given into his (the False Prophet's) hand until a TIME AND TIMES AND THE DIVIDING OF TIME (THE 2ND 3.5 YEARS)" (Dan. 7:23-25).

Rev. 12 agrees. When the False Prophet becomes Satan-possessed Mid-Trib, those in Judea will flee into the wilderness, "where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS (or the last 3.5 years, v. 14)" (Rev. 12:6).

Rev 12:1314 continues the thread. It says, "And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was cast INTO THE EARTH (the bottomless pit, which he then came up out of and entered into the False Prophet), he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. And to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME (3.5 YEARS, OR 1260 DAYS, v. 6), from the face of the serpent."

Dan. 12:7 agrees: "it shall be for A TIME, TIMES, AND AN HALF (LAST 3.5 YEARS); and when he (the False Prophet) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED."

This 3.5 years is the same as in v. 11, except that in 11, another 30 days (probably for mourning the dead) is added. It says, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (when the False Prophet becomes Satan-possessed Mid-Trib), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Dan. 12:11).

Therefore, the first half of the Tribulation is 1260 days (Rev. 11:3). That section is not shortened. The witnesses prophesy 1260 days and the Beast rules during that same 1260 days (Rev. 13:5).

The second half of the Tribulation is the Great Tribulation. It is to be shortened. Mt. 24:21,22 says, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The church saints that are the Bride of Christ are kept from the 70th week of Daniel. Rev. 3:10-12 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek, out of) the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." These are in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 before the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6.

The saints of Israel, the 144,000 that are part of the Bride of Christ, will not be kept from the 70th week of Daniel. However, they will be kept from the wrath of God. They will be part of the 2nd Rapture that takes place in Rev. 7:14 between the breaking of the 6th seal in Rev. 6:12 and the breaking of the 7th seal in Rev. 8.

Unless people have this basic framework straight, they will be placing everything that belongs just before or in the first 3.5 years in with the things that belong in the last 3.5 years. They forget that the Beast of Rev. 13:3-10 rules for 3.5 years, then the False Prophet takes over and rules during the Great Tribulation that is to be shortened. The first half of the 70th week of Daniel is not shortened. The second half is shortened. The abomination of desolation (Mt. 24:15; Dan. 12:11) marks the transition from the first 3.5 years to the second 3.5 years.

> > On the 15th of Tishri, the Feast of Tabernacles, Jesus completes His physical return stepping down on the Mount of Olives with such force the mountain splits towards the east and west. The shock wave of His physical return coupled with multiple nuclear explosions as the nations gone mad unleash their fury actually causes the earth itself to "reel to and fro" bringing the madness to an end.

The 15th of Tishri is not the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year. I expect Jesus to return at the Second Advent on Nisan 1 and officially take office on the same day all the other Hebrew kings took office.

Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The Lord came as the former rain (Tishri 1) the first time. I think he will return as the latter rain (Nisan 1).

Eze. 29:17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." That is Nisan 1 (Eze. 45:18,21). Verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (i.e., the logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

I don't think nuclear explosions are the reason this Earth will be knocked upside down. Isa 24:1 says, "Behold, THE LORD MAKETH THE EARTH EMPTY, AND MAKETH IT WASTE, AND TURNETH IT UPSIDE DOWN, AND SCATTERETH ABROAD THE INHABITANTS THEREOF."

Rev. 8:8,10 says, "the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire (an asteroid) was cast into the sea (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5): and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star (aster, star, asteroid or meteorite) FROM HEAVEN, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters."

This binary asteroid was prefigured by the "flaming sword which turned every way, to keep (guard) the way of (to) the tree of life" (Christ in Heaven) (Gen. 3:24). Jer 12:12 says, "The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the SWORD OF THE LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace."

The asteroid impacts are on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord (Joel 1:15; 2:1-3). There are 7 months between that Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1, when the Lord returns to Earth (Eze. 39:12,13). That means that the Jewish year that begins on that Feast of Trumpets will be a Jewish Leap Year. These are the upcoming Leap Years, 5763 (2002/2003), 5765 (2004/2005), 5768 (2007/2008) and 5771 (2010/2011). It looks to me like Tishri 1, 5768 will be the Day of God's Wrath and Nisan 1, 5768 will be the Second Advent. Agape

Incoming email

Re: bible codes
The start of the tribulation period is Sept. 2002 acording to bible codes when the anti christ will sign the 7 year treaty with israel. what do you think of this.

My reply

That could be, but I don't accept what Bible codes reveal about dates. Every letter has a numerical coefficient. There are too many numbers. If the codes were something we should go by for dates of end-time events, the Rapture would have taken place on Pentecost, 1998. Agape

Incoming email

Re: manna
In your latest pro-con on the subject of manna I would like to mention this. I have met a man who was born in Israel, lived in Israel, was stationed in the Sinai under Ariel Sharon and he mentioned this manna. I believe that the Lord will use the natural in a miraculas way. Sincerely

P.S. The man I mentioned now lives in Canada with his Canadian wife and their two children. They live about a half hour drive from me.

My reply

I just can't imagine anything natural to Sinai feeding something like 3 million people one meal, let alone all meals for 40 years. Agape

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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2002/danr131-2.htm Dan Refner (31 Jan)
"Chronology - Jesus A.D. 33 - Apperarances"

This Chronology came by way of a book called, "Jesus Christ The Greatest Life".

A.D.33 Jesus - Appearances Post Resurrection.

* Sunday April 5th - Jesus Resurrection
* Jesus first appearance after his resurrection.
* Jesus on the road to Emmaus.
* Jesus appears to his disciples.
* Jesus appears to Thomas and the others.
* Second miraculous catch of fish.
* Thursday May 14th - Jesus ascends to the Father.

The above chronology is said to be based on the time of the death of Herod in March of 4 B.C., the beginning of the ministry of John the Baptist in the 15 year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1), and the timing of the full moon for the Passover of A.D. 33

The Hebrew calendar is Lunar (354 days) where as our current solar calendar (365.2421 days) has a difference of 11.25 days each year.

Next on the Calendar is PASSOVER! In HIS Joy, Dan

My reply

> > Re: Jesus A.D. 33
> > This Chronology came by way of a book called, "Jesus Christ The Greatest Life".

I know that these dates are not yours, but this book's. I just want to put in my 2 cent's worth so people won't rely on those dates as correct without checking them out.

Here are my views. The Jews had the right to execute anyone taken away from them in 30 AD. Therefore, the Crucifixion was not before 30 AD. Judah was punished 40 years for rejecting her king. Eze. 4:6 says, "thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." Jerusalem and the temple were burned in 70 AD, forty years after Judah rejected her king. For no more reasons than these, we can know that the Crucifixion took place in 30 AD.

There are more clues. Jesus was baptized near Tishri 1, his 30th birthday, in 26 AD. Luke 3:1-3 gives us some clues to help us identify that year. It says, "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." All of these fit 26 AD, the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

Tiberius became Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD. He had sole rule over Judea from that time on, Augustus being busy in other parts of the realm. Tiberius became Sol-Rex 2 years later, but 12 AD was the beginning of his reign. AD 26 was the 15th year of his reign.

The 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry was in 27 AD. This was the year that Herod's temple had been under construction 46 years (John 2:20). It was started in BC 20/19. The 2nd Passover was in 28 AD, the 3rd in 29 AD, and the 4th in 30 AD.

This places Jesus' birth in BC 5, but not because Herod died in March of 4 B.C. He was still alive when the wise men came to see the child in a house. The Greek means a toddler, not a newborn baby. I figure that Herod had the boys killed in Bethlehem that were 2 and under, because it had been about that long since Jesus was born. It was after the wise men gave Jesus the gifts that they had brought and had left by another route, that Herod died. That was soon after the lunar eclipse of Jan. 10, BC 1.

> > The Hebrew calendar is Lunar (354 days) where as our current solar calendar (365.2421 days) has a difference of 11.25 days each year.

There are 6 kinds of Jewish years. They have 353, 354, 355, 383, 384, or 385 days. As varied as it is, at the end of 19 years, their calendar is very close to ours. It is even closer after 57 years. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Time
A 1000 years of our time = one day of the Lords time, then one year = X minutes
X = 1.44 minutes, or 1 minute 26.4 seconds.

If we had said the Lord will return in 1998 and He returns this year for us we have missed the time by just under 6 minutes. Not bad!

My reply

Thanks. That's a nice thought. Agape

Incoming email

Re: just a note looking for hope
Thank you for your sight. it has blessed me and my extended family.

my reasone for writing is I am worried about my salvation. you all sound so wise. and some is hard for me to fallow, but I pray and read on. My worries are in regardes to the 1st rapture I want so much to be a part of this. I have just recently learned that my life style is going to cause me to go threw the trib. trying to change I feel as if I am loosing time. I am quitting smoking, but I also have not attended church for a while have not been reading every day and am desperate to regane the passion I once had for the lord I am scared I do not like the way this feels. Thank you for your time please pray for me. ~Jesus Loves You~

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. I prayed for you.

If you are not sure of your salvation, pray and tell the Father that you accept Jesus Christ as your own personal Saviour. Record the date and know that from this day on, you are for sure saved. Tell someone you believe in Jesus. Rom. 10: 9,10 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Pray for help in walking the Christian walk. It is not a big job, for it is one step at a time. That's not too hard.

There are some verses we should know. All sins before we accepted Christ are wiped off the books. When we walk the Christian walk, our feet get dirty, i.e., little sins get between us and God. We get out of fellowship with our righteous and holy God. The Lord didn't leave us without a remedy. Jesus washed Peter's feet and said they would understand what that meant later. John gave us the way to let Jesus wash our feet. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." In other words, when we confess our known sins to God, he will cleanse us from all unrighteousness (both known and unknown sins). Then we are back in fellowship with God.

Confession amounts to our washing our robes in the blood of Christ to make them white. This is what the Tribulation saints do (Rev. 7:14). We can do that now, learning our lesson the easy way instead of having to do it later anyway. Why do everything the hard way?

II Peter 1:3-11 says, " Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans, Rev. 3:16f), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS (committed before we accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an ENTRANCE (at the Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

In Luke 21:36. Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Agape

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