Pro and Con 873

Posted 2-15-02

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FWD From: Jim Bramlett
Originally From: Larry
To: Jim Bramlett
Re: Your Article in 5Doves on Jan 26, 2002

Jim, I read Wayne Coleman's article today which he appended your article from Marilyn Agee which I've extracted below. I happen to have an English version of the Quran with me & Surah 91:5 says this "By the Firmament and it's (wonderful) structure;". Perhaps you can let Marilyn know so that she can get the correct verse from Paul Harvey. Thanks & God bless!

Here is an interesting item from Marilyn Agee's Web site, January 24, 2002:

"Paul Harvey today said people are wondering why there is not an all-out attack on Israel, since everything seems in place to destroy it. THE ANSWER IS IN THE KORAN, SURAH 91-5. "AFTER THE SACRED MONTHS ARE OVER, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS (THE JEWS, ETC.) WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM." The sacred months began with Ramadan and will end Feb 23, the last day of the Hajj. There will be just "minor" terrorist attacks until then. Also, Arafat will be pretending to be begging for peace and calling on the rest of the world to stop that "Goliath" Israel. They get everything backwards. The Jews are outnumbered 2000 to one! The Bible says that the Jews win even so! It just won't look like it on Feb 24th."
I don't have a copy of the Koran, but the answer may simply be a typographical error. I note that today, CAPS posted an article on the 5D site by Miriam HOward that quotes my message by saying, "Koran, Surah 9:1-5 says the following... "AFTER THE SACRED MONTHS ARE OVER,then slay the idolater's (The Jews etc) where you find them."

So maybe it is 9:1-5 instead of 91:5. Jim

My reply

This is the first time I did a search in the Koran, but I got lucky and found this quote and a couple others.
The Immunity
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

At-Tauba (The Repentance)...
9:36 The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

My outgoing e-mail

To: Rich Pope,

Someone very nice got me Artscroll's Stone Edition Tanach (Old Testament) that you think so highly of. I'm sure enjoying reading it. Thanks for making me aware of its existance. All quotations below are from it, unless otherwise noted. From the introduction, we find out that when we see "HASHEM," we are to understand that the original has YHVH. Similarly, the KJV has "LORD" for YHVH.

I looked up Prov. 30:4-6 right away. It says, "Who [but Moses] ascended to heaven and descended? Who else gathered the wind in his palm? Who else tied the waters in a cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? WHAT IS HIS NAME, AND WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, IF YOU KNOW? Every word of God is refined; He is a shield to those who trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He test you and find that you deceived."

The original does not say "[but Moses]." That is the translator's interpretation, but it is not Scripture. We can be sure of that for under the Hebrew words in Green's Interlinear, it says, "Who has gone up (to) Heaven and returned," so I'll omit "[but Moses]"and just use the Lord's words. Here are Scriptures' answers to three of the questions in Prov. 30:4. If these are understood, the other answers will be understood.

(1) "Who ... ascended to heaven and descended?"

Isa. 68:5 says, "extol He Who rides upon the highest heavens, with HIS NAME YAH." Yah is short for Yahweh (YHVH). The son came as Saviour in the name of his Father, so we call his name Yah plus shua, or "yshuwah," salvation--Yahshua, Joshua, Yashua or Yeshua. He is also called Immanuel or Emmanuel.

Isa. 7:14 says, "my Lord Himself will give you A SIGN: Behold, the maiden will become pregnant and bear A SON, and she will NAME HIM IMMANUEL" (meaning GOD WITH US). El is another name of God, shortened from Elohim or Eloah.

Mt. 1:23 (KJV) says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth A SON, and they shall call HIS NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." II Cor. 5:19 (KJV) explains "that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF."

(2) "Who established all the ends of the earth?

Psa. 119:90 says, "Forever, HASHEM (YHVH), Your word stands firm in the heavens. Your faithfulness is from generation to generation. YOU ESTABLISHED THE EARTH."




Knowing God's name is important. Psa. 91:14 says, "I will deliver him; I will elevate him BECAUSE HE KNOWS MY NAME."

Isa. 9:6 says, "a child has been born to us (inheriting his human nature from his mother), A SON has been given to us (inheriting his deity from his Father), and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Adviser, MIGHTY GOD, ETERNAL FATHER, CALLED HIS NAME SAR-SHOM [PRINCE OF PEACE]."

Psa. 2:1-7 says, "Why do nations gather, and regimes talk in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the princes conspire secretly, against HASHEM (YHVH) AND against HIS ANOINTED (MASCHIYACH, MESSIAH): Let us cut THEIR (Father and Son's) cords and let us cast off THEIR ropes from ourselves. He Who sits in Heaven will laugh, the Lord will mock them. Then He will speak to them in His anger, and in His wrath He will terrify them: "I MYSELF HAVE ANOINTED MY KING, over Zion, My holy mountain!" I am obliged to proclaim that HASHEM (YHVH, THE FATHER) said to ME (YHVH, the Son), "YOU ARE MY SON, I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU THIS DAY." The Son is YHVH's Maschiach, Messiah, to Israel, also .

Jer. 23:5,6 says, "Behold, days are coming -- the word of HASHEM -- when I will establish a RIGHTEOUS SPROUT FROM DAVID...THIS IS THE NAME PEOPLE WILL CALL HIM: HASHEM (YHVH) IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."


Psa. 24:8-10 tells us who this king is. It says, "Who is this King of Glory? HASHEM, the mighty and strong; HASHEM, the strong in battle. Raise up your heads, O gates, and raise up, you everlasting entrances, so that the King of Glory may enter. Who is He, this King of Glory? HASHEM, MASTER OF LEGIONS, HE IS THE KING OF GLORY. Selah!" (meaning pause and think of that).


Jer. 48:15 says, "the word of THE KING, HASHEM (YHVH), MASTER OF LEGIONS, IS HIS NAME."

Isa. 48:2 says, "THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HASHEM (YHVH), MASTER OF LEGIONS, IS HIS NAME." The Son, both King of Israel and its Redeemer Master of legions, is the YHVH that deals directly with mankind. De. 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: HASHEM (YHVH) is our God (Elohim), HASHEM (YHVH) is the One (echad, united) and Only." The KJV says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH)." In John 10:30 (KJV), Yeshua said, "I and my Father are one."

Gen. 2:26 (Stone Edition) says, "GOD said, "Let US make Man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." We are body, soul and spirit. I am daughter, wife and mother, three in one. The Godhead is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Ex. 15:3 says, "HASHEM is Master of war (i.e., MASTER OF LEGIONS) -- HIS NAME IS HASHEM" (YHVH).

Isa. 42:8 says, "I am HASHEM (YHVH); THAT IS MY NAME."

Jer. 16:21 says, "they shall know that MY NAME IS HASHEM (YHVH)!"

Isa. 43:3 says, "I am HASHEM (YHVH) YOUR GOD, the Holy One of Israel, YOUR SAVIOR."

Jer. 10:16 says, "Israel is the tribe that is His heritage; HIS NAME IS HASHEM (YHVH), MASTER OF LEGIONS ."


In John 10:14-16 (KJV), Christ (Christos, annointed, i.e., the Messiah) said, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I LAY DOWN MY LIFE FOR THE SHEEP. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and THERE SHALL BE ONE FOLD, AND ONE SHEPHERD."

Isa. 53:6 (Stone Edition) says, "WE HAVE ALL STRAYED LIKE SHEEP, each of us turning his own way, and HASHEM (YHVH) INFLICTED UPON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL." Heb 9:22 (KJV) says, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION."

Rom 3:25 (KJV) "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST (Adam's to the Crucifixion), through the forbearance of God."


Act 4:11,12 (KJV) says, "This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

How is Yeshua head of the corner? Think of the curtain of the Tabernacle. There were 10 widths of fabric sewn together in two groups of five, those put together by clasps. Each of the 10 widths had cherubim embroidered on them, so if one was in the Tabernacle, they could look up and see the cherubim. They stood for the 10 origial planets, including Satan's planet Rahab that was split apart to form our Asteroid Belt. The width representing Earth was the one that bent over the rear corner of the Tabernacle. Yeshua will not only be king of Israel, he will be king over the whole planet--"the head of the corner".

Psa. 118:21-23 (Stone Edition) says, "I thank You for You have answered me and become my salvation. The stone the builders despised has become the cornerstone. This emanated from HASHEM (YHVH)." Shalom and agape

His reply

Wow! Someone got you a copy of the Stone Edition? That's some serious money! I'm glad you have it. It's just another research tool you can use when hammering out your eschatology.

Yes, the commentary of the Stone Edition follows Rashi (if I'm not mistaken) and items that appear in the parenthesis are indeed added words that do not appear in the Hebrew.

I know you are not going to agree with the comments placed at the bottom of the page. This is to be expected because these interpretations are totally foreign to Christians. But at least you now have in your hands an accurate translation of the Hebrew. Rich

Incoming e-mail

Re: Another opinion of the Rich Pope attacks.
First, let me thank you ever so much for your blessed lessons in Bible Prophecy and Christian conduct. God will bless you and Ed ever so much for your efforts.

Some of us in our Church, and I do believe that we are a "Church", have come to be offended by Mr. Rich Pope's chilling attacks on you and your opinions of Bible Prophecy. While his words are certainly offending, I believe that you are quite right in publishing them. By publishing both his offensive statements and your Christian replies, we get a side by side, all at once, example of how to conduct ourselves as a Christian and how NOT to conduct ourselves as a Christian. Perhaps this is the reason that you wound up in the "deleted" folder "somehow". Agape

My reply

I appreciate your kind words. I got the Stone Edition that someone nice got me. I like it and am enjoying looking up things in it before I settle down to read it all the way through. Some of them, I sent to Rich yesterday. It gives him one more chance to see the truth about the Godhead that peeks out through the pages of the Tanach. If he thinks this version is the only one that speaks the truth, maybe, just maybe, he will believe the truth, that YHVH king of Israel and YHVH Master of Legions are one united Elohim, YHVH being both the first and the last (Isa. 44:6).

Isn't it neat that the Hebrew "yshuw'ah," and "yesha," both meaning salvation, give us the name of the Savior, Yeshua? The word "yasha," Saviour does too. Think of how many times that is repeated in the Tanach. I found 115 in the KJV.

The first one I looked up in the Stone Edition is great. Isa. 62:10 says, "Behold, HASHEM (YHVH) has announced to the ends of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion (the Israelites, the Jews), 'Behold, your Savior (yesha) has come!' Behold, His reward is with Him, and His wage is before Him." That teaching is wrapped up in the last chapter of the Bible. In Rev. 22:12 (KJV), Yeshua said, "behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Psa. 62:6 (Stone Edition) says, "For God alone, wait silently, my soul, because my hope is from Him. He alone is my Rock and my Salvation (yshuw'ah)."

Isa. 12:2 says, "Behold, God is my salvation (yshuw'ah); I shall trust and not fear. For God is my might and my praise -- HASHEM (YHVH)! -- and He is a salvation (yshuw'ah) for me."

Isa. 52:10 says, "HASHEM (YHVH) has bared His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; all ends of the earth will see the salvation (yshuw'ah) of our God!"

Isa. 61:10 says, "I will rejoice intensely with HASHEM (YHVH) , my soul will exult with my God (Elohiym), for He has dressed me in the raiment of salvation (yesha), in a robe of righteousness has He cloaked me, like a bridegroom who exalts [himself] with splendor, like a bride who bedecks herself with her jewelry."

I just had to look up Song of Solomon 2:10-13. It says, "Arise, My love, My fair one, and go forth. For the winter of bondage has passed (March 21 is 1st day of spring), the deluge of suffering (at the hands of the PA?) is over and gone. The righteous blossoms are seen in the land, the time of your song (the 'new song' of Rev. 5:9) has arrived, and the voice of your guide (the Holy Spirit, symbolized by the turtledove) is heard in the land. The fig tree (Israel) has formed its first small figs (fruit, i.e., Messianic Jews), ready for ascent (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) to the Temple (the heavenly one); the vines are in blossom, their fragrance declaring they are ready for libation. Arise, My beloved, My fair one, and go forth!" Agape

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From: CAPS To John/Marilyn or anyone else who is copied. I don't have time or energy presently to respond to this gentleman. Yet, I feel he needs an explanation. If anyone feels so led, please email Rich and maybe try to explain things to him. John, no need to post unless you want to. Sherry, you are good at explaining things ....maybe you could write him re his stance, etc. Thanks. CAPS
To: CAPS, From:

I don't think the rapture is near. When the desciples asked Jesus what is the sign of His coming, he gave them the Olivet discourse (Mt chapters 24 and 25) -a two chapter chronology of his coming, which starts with the sign of the Beast standing in the Temple, which is subsequently followed by the rapture.

My reply

It isn't necessary to know that the Rapture is near, but that knowledge does prod us to get ready by confessing our sins (I John 1:9).

I looked up Song of Solomon 2:10-13 in Artscroll's Stone Edition Tanach (Old Testament). It may be talking about our days and the Rapture. It says, "Arise, My love, My fair one, and go forth. For the winter of bondage has passed (March 21 is 1st day of spring), the deluge of suffering (at the hands of the PA?) is over and gone (a ceasefire may bring Israel and the PA to the point that the confirming the peace covenant of Dan. 9:27 looks possible). The righteous blossoms are seen in the land (spring flowers on Mt. Carmel are gorgeous), the time of your song (the 'new song' of Rev. 5:9) has arrived, and the voice of your guide (the Holy Spirit, symbolized by the turtledove) is heard in the land. The fig tree (Israel) has formed its first small figs (fruit, i.e., Messianic Jews), READY FOR ASCENT (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) to the Temple (the heavenly one); the vines are in blossom, their fragrance declaring they are ready for libation. Arise, My beloved, My fair one, and go forth!"

> > (Mt chapters 24 and 25) -a two chapter chronology of his coming, which starts with the sign of the Beast standing in the Temple, which is subsequently followed by the rapture.

I think the abomination of desolation is an idol, the "image to the beast" of Rev. 13:14. It is placed at the temple by the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18 Mid-Trib. From that time to the end of the shortened Great Tribulation (Mt. 24:21,22) is covered in Mt. 24:15-31. None of this is talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture, or the Second Advent. In verse 27, the coming of the Son of man is mentioned, but that is not the Second Advent, which follows the end of the shortened Tribulation by 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13). At the Second Advent, all the saints will come to Earth with Christ (Zech. 14:5). Before that, we must all be caught up to Heaven.

In Mt. 24:30, the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in they sky. That happens between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 6:14f). The Pre-Trib Rapture takes place before the 1st seal is broken (Rev. 5:9; 6:1).

Mt. 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." Notice that these saints are already in Heaven, having been caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

As Mt. 24:32 begins, there is a break in the continuity. Jesus goes back and uses the fig tree parable to give us clues as to when these saints get to heaven. From there to Mt. 25:30, the subject is the Pre-Trib Rapture. V. 30 says, "And cast ye the unprofitable servant (believer) into outer darkness (outside the door of Heaven). This ties in with the parable of the wedding supper in Mt. 22. After the man without a wedding garment was cast outside the door, there was "weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen" (Mt. 22:13,14). We must be wearing spiritual white robes of righteousness. The Bride wears white (Rev. 19:8).

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, "many are called, but few are chosen." The rest of the believers are cast out because they lack the white wedding garments. Mt. 24:50,51 says, "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder (lit., cut him off), and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him (the foolish believer) his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." These foolish believers are the foolish virgins of Mt. 25. They are left behind, because they do not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to keep their lamps burning brightly. The ones that go with the Bridegroom when he comes are the Bride of Christ.

In Mt. 24:42, Jesus said to "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Wise virgins will obey. Foolish ones will not. Why do we need to watch? so we can recognize the signs of the times.

In the parable of the fig tree, Jesus said, "When his branch (klados, a scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel, grafted into her old rootstock, is yet tender (apalos, no more than 19, as when they came out of Egypt), and putteth forth leaves (when 19, Israel grew leaves, Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, in the Six-Day War of 1967), ye know that summer is nigh (the war began June 5; summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (Israel grafted in and growing), know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the Raptures, Rev. 3:8; 4:1). Verily (amen, i.e., this is important) I say unto you, This generation (those born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

1967 + 40 = 2007. Thus, I take it that the gathering of the saints in Heaven of Mt. 24:31 will probably take place in 2007. The 70th week of Dan. 9:27 is 7 years. On our calendar, when we subtract 7 from 2007, we get 2000. We are well past that now. How much can the Tribulation be shortened? I'll sure be surprised if we don't hear the "trump of God" this spring. I thought we would be outta here before this. We seem to be on borrowed time already.

It seems that the gathering of the saints in Heaven will be on the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3), which will be Tishri 1, 5768 on the Jewish Calendar (our Sept. 13, 2007). 5768 - 7 = 5761, which is past now.

Heb. 12:23-25 speaks of the general assembly in Heaven that day. It says, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven."

That day is Christ's Coronation Day, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb and the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. That day, all of the saints will be there. That means that not only will the saints in Heaven be gathered to the general assembly, the Tribulation saints will also be there. Mark 13:27 adds this detail. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." Those gathered from Earth are the Tribulation saints. This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

It precedes the Judgment Seat of Christ, where all saints will receive their rewards. Rev. 11:17,18 says, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (with the 7 trumpet judgments). The Wrath of God is poured out on unbelievers left on Earth at the same time that the saints in Heaven are receiving their rewards. Two Raptures will take place before those rewards are handed out.

The first "trump of God" calls the Bride of Christ to Heaven (I Thess. 4:16,17). The "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52) calls the 144,000 Israelites that are also virgins without fault before the throne of God (Rev. 14:4,5). They are also firstfruits to be added to the Bride group. Besides these, there is a great multitude that no man can number caught up just before the Wrath of God hits Earth (Rev. 7:9,14).

There is another reason to think the Pre-Trib Rapture is near. When Joseph was in Egypt, there were 7 good years and 7 bad years, and the pattern was repeated. I think it was repeated so we would know that it not only applied then, but now.

Gen. 41:1-7 says, "Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river. And, behold, there came up out of the river seven well favoured kine (cows) and fatfleshed; and they fed in a meadow. And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favoured and leanfleshed; and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river. And the ill favoured and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favoured and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke. And he slept and dreamed the second time: and, behold, seven ears of corn came up upon one stalk, rank and good. And, behold, seven thin ears and blasted with the east wind sprung up after them. And the seven thin ears devoured the seven rank and full ears. And Pharaoh awoke, and, behold, it was a dream." Joseph gave the interpretation that God gave him. They stood for 7 good years followed by 7 bad years.

The latter-day pattern seems to have started with the signing of the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993. 1993 + 7 = 2000. 2000 + 7 = 2007. Sept. 13, 2007 is the Feast of Trumpets. We seem to be running out of time now.

The 1st Rapture has to be before the 1st seal on the Title Deed of the Earth is broken. This group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are out of every nation and tongue. The 2nd Rapture is between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. That is the Rapture Mark 13:27 is talking about. If it will be on Sept. 13, 2007, the Bride of Christ isn't long for this world now. Do you agree? Agape

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Re: A little closer?
Verachip and Digital Angel have gotten more exposure on a national level. Think about it for a minute, it will be used for biometric purposes first, medical and then the government will claim everyone will need one implanted for security reasons. Mass production of this biometric chip is looming on the horizon, which means to think a rapture may occur lets say, ten years from now, sounds unlikely. The rapture may be right around the corner, I think. We are not going to sit on this technology for ten or twenty years, its here now, and will be the tool ac will use to force everyone to accept. Israel is a powder keg ready to blow, to think the conflict will continue for years sounds unlikely. The rapture is going to trigger world events to line up with scripture. Key military personnel along with millions who have vanished will be the incentive for other nations to move against Israel. First peace then destruction, everything is lining up the way they should.

My reply

I agree. Everything seems to be moving into place. Agape

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