Pro and Con 880

Posted 3-15-02

My reply to a post on 5 Doves site

Re: Gleason Parker, "Paul's "Rapture"--A type of us?"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2002/gleasonp313-2.htm

> > In II Cor 12:1-4, we read about Paul's experience which may be a type of the rapture for us....
> > I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) how that he was caught up to paradise."

Spiritualizing Scripture has the inherent danger that we will let our imaginations run too far with our material. If it mean what we think it does, then it must be upheld by other scriptures.

What I can see in II Cor. 12:1-7 applies to the Rapture in a more literal way. It gives us the DESTINATION of the saints who are caught up in I Thess. 4:16,17. It says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, and with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO, plucked, pulled, taken, or caught up; by force) together with them in the CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air."

Rev. 1:10 and 4:1 show us that Christ's "GREAT VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET" will SHOUT "COME UP HITHER" when Heaven's door opens. Rev. 11:12 shows us what will happen when we hear that "GREAT VOICE from heaven." When it says "COME UP HITHER" to Moses and Elijah, they are resurrected, then "they ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD; and THEIR ENEMIES BEHELD THEM."

Psa. 40:1-3 shows that people will see the first Rapture too. It says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (as Jeremiah was raised up out of the miry pit by a cord [i.e., Christ's righteousness] and rotten rags [our righteousnesses]), out of the miry clay (out of the Earth), and set my feet upon a rock (Saturn), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, AND FEAR, AND SHALL TRUST IN THE LORD."

In II Cor. 12:2-4, Paul was also "CAUGHT UP " (HARPAZO) to Heaven, but it adds that it is "THE THIRD HEAVEN" and that "he was CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO), into PARADISE (paradeisos, an Eden, i.e., the heavenly one).

I think "THE THIRD HEAVEN" is literal. Where is the literal THIRD HEAVEN located? Count them, (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter and (3) SATURN, the THIRD HEAVEN."

Josephus was a Pharisee priest. He said that the candlestick represented the planets, including the Sun (Ant. III. VI. 7). Since the western lamp was to always be kept burning, it represented the Sun. The other lamps were lit at night, as the planets can be seen in the sky at night. There was the (1) Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter and (7) Saturn.

Now think of this planetary lineup as being vertical. The Sun, Mercury and Venus would be below Earth. Mars, Jupiter and Saturn would be above Earth. If one started counting with the Earth, Saturn would be the third heaven. If one started counting with the Sun, Saturn would be the seventh heaven.

Exo 20:11 says, "For in six days the LORD made (asah, refashioned) heaven (shamayim, the heavens, or Saturn, Shabbatai, meaning rest) and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh (shbiy'iy) day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath (shabbath) day , and hallowed it." It looks to me like the Shabbath day reminds us that our place of rest is on the seventh Shabbatai. Tying in, the Day of the Lord, the seventh millennium rest, is called the sabbatismos in Heb. 4:9.

Keep that vertical planetary lineup in mind. In Ezekiel's vision in chapter 1, the four flying things orbiting in concentric circles (wheels within wheels) are the terrestrial planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth ("one wheel upon the earth," v. 15) and Mars. In verse 22, we find that there is a "firmament" (expanse of space) over the heads of the terrestrial planets. Verse 26 says, "And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it." This is Christ's throne. Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. From the equator upward and downward is the color amber, v. 27, and Saturn is yellow brushed with amber. Agape

Incoming email

Subject: 7 day warning?
Keep up the good work! Please read Jim Bramlett's letter on 5 Doves for 13 March, 2002. "Fast, Rapture & Day of the Lord." Could this (fast) be a 7 day warning? Another possible 7 day warning might be the U.N. Security Council's endorsement (very late on March 12th - 11:48 pm, & published on CNN the 13th) of a Palentinian state.
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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2002/jim313-2.htm

As you probably already know, due to the extreme crisis in Israel, the Chief Rabbinate there has called Jewish congregations all around the world plan to participate in the special day of fasting, prayer, and unity on Wednesday, March 13, 2002, which on the Jewish calendar is the beginning of the new year (Nisan 1).

This is a stark reminder of Joel chapter 1, where a fast is called in verse 14, then (and this is significant) Joel speaks prophetically in verse 15: "For the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty."

I believe this proclaimed fast is a signal that the day of the LORD is, indeed, near -- maybe extremely near -- as well as the rapture.

My reply

> > Could this (fast) be a 7 day warning?

Probably a warning, not necessarily a 7-day warning. Prophecies do cast their shadows before them, and this does get us to read Joel 1 and 2 carefully. I think it is the Feast of Trumpets, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It is at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation.

Joel 1:6,11,14,15 says, "a nation (Russia, Eze. 38) is come up upon my land (Israel), strong, and without number, whose teeth (other nations with her) are the teeth of a lion (Babylon), and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion (it's the United Nations' army, Zech. 1,2, Isa. 34:2)....Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished (abad, vanished, escaped, i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture has just taken place)....Sanctify ye a fast (the upcoming Day of Atonement), CALL a solemn assembly, gather the elders and ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE LAND INTO THE HOUSE OF THE LORD YOUR GOD, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." When Israel finally turns to the Lord, he will save them. They will be born in a day too (Isa. 66:8). This is the day that brings it forth.

Joel 2 opens with "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE LAND tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day a darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's United Nations' army); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it."

Joel 2:10,11 says, "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army (but we don't come to Earth with Him for another 7 months, Eze. 39:12,13; this he does alone): for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it." Isa 63:3 says, "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was NONE WITH ME: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."

Joel 2:15-21 is a scene in the heavenly Zion. It says, "Blow the trumpet (it's the Feast of Trumpets) in Zion, sanctify a fast (the upcoming Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly (Heb. 12:23): Gather the people (from one end of Heaven to the other, Mt. 24:31), sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders (the 24, Rev. 4:4), gather the children (Tribulation saints, Mark 13:27), and those that suck the breasts (all children are raptured from Earth): let the bridegroom (Christ) go forth of his chamber, and the bride (Bride of Christ) out of her closet (chuppah, the Marriage of the Lamb is this day). Let the priests (i.e., saints, Rev. 5:10), the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: But I WILL REMOVE FAR OFF FROM YOU THE NORTHERN ARMY (of Eze. 38), and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea (the Mediterranean), and his hinder part toward the utmost sea (Dead Sea), and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things." The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5) and wipe out all but 1/6th of Gog's army (Eze. 39:2).

Rev. 6:14-17 is talking about this day. It says, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

> > Another possible 7 day warning might be the U.N. Security Council's endorsement (very late on March 12th - 11:48 pm, & published on CNN the 13th) of a Palentinian state.

To me, it is an unwise move. However we know that they will divide the land. Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and PARTED MY LAND." Oh boy! are they going to get what for because of parting God's land. Mal 4:1 says, "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD (YHVH) of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6), that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Colin Powell was to make a speech about a Palestinian state on 9-11 last year. You know what happened to stop that speech being made at that time. That was not the time to bring a Palestinian state into being. The wording is a bit different this time, more cautious. It should be. The fall of the twin towers was not just a slap on the wrist. The time for a Palestinian state may be right now. We should all be sure all our sins are under the blood of Christ, then watch and see what happens. The coming of the Lord in the air seems close. As someone wrote me, I can't see how this could drag on much longer. Israel is getting dug about and dunged right now (Luke 13:6-9).
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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2002/davidc313.htm
As a result of intense negotiations, the United States decided late Tuesday to amend its text by "affirming a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestinian, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."
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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2002/annettel313-1.htm
Peres: Israel wants to secure cease-fire deal by week's end

All of a sudden, they seem in a hurry. Agape

Incoming email

From: BigShmooz@aol.com
Btw... I noticed you did not print most of my letters. I am glad though that you printed this one. Please print the one I am sending you now also.

I had asked...
> > > "You seem to be of the opinion that the son of man (jesus) is a god. How then would you explain Numbers chapter 23 verse 19 that says he is not the son of man."

To which you replied.... Nu. 23:19 says, "God is not a man that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should relent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm" Balak wanted Balaam to curse Israel. God would not allow it, and he made it clear that his word goes. He is neither a mere man that could be deceitful nor a mere man that could relent. He is YHVH, and what he says is exactly the way it is or ever will be. The words "like" and "as" are symbolic language.

Dan. 7:13 says, I was watching in night visions and behold! with the clouds of heaven, ONE LIKE A MAN (not just a man, but one looking like a man) came; HE came up to the One of Ancient Days (YHVH), and they brought HIM (YHVH Master of Legions) before HIM (YHVH the Ancient of Days). HE(YHVH Master of Legions) WAS GIVEN DOMINION, HONOR AND KINGSHIP, so that all peoples (Gentiles and Jews), nations and languages would serve HIM; his DOMINION would be an everlasting DOMINION that would never pass, and his KINGSHIP would never be destroyed." How can YHVH Master of Legions be "ONE LIKE A MAN" and yet not be just a man? He is a unique being. He has two natures, that of man and that of God.

Isa. 9:6 explains, "A CHILD HAS BEEN BORN to us (inheriting his human nature from his mother), A SON HAS BEEN GIVEN TO US (given, not born, inheriting his Deity from his Father), and the DOMINION will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Adviser, MIGHTY GOD, ETERNAL FATHER, CALLED HIS NAME SAR-SHALOM [Prince of Peace]; upon the one with the greatness in DOMINION and the boundless peace that will prevail on the throne of David and on his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it through justice and righteousness, from now to eternity. The zealousness of HASHEM (YHVH), MASTER OF LEGIONS, WILL ACCOMPLISH THIS." etc...

My response... if it had said, not LIKE the son of man, I would possibly agree with your logic. But since it says "& is not" the logic of your answer falls away.

You further try to bring proof from Daniel. The problem with your proof from Daniel is, that it is not referring to God when it is speaking of the one "like a man".

You logic from Isaiah does not work either, because the verse says he was already born at the time. Indeed Eemuhnoo Ail refers to King Hezekiah, a contemporary of Isaiah. The verse says, "a child HAS BEEN born, a son HAS BEEN GIVEN" not, WILL BE born, not, WILL BE GIVEN.

My reply

> > ... I noticed you did not print most of my letters.

I'm sorry, but I get more mail than I have time to answer. I have to pick and choose. According to God's word, I am not obligated to correspond with unbelievers endlessly. That would not be the best use of my time.

I do my best to live by the new covenant, including Titus 3:1-11 (CJB). It says, "be ready to do any honorable kind of work, to slander no one, to avoid quarrelling, to be friendly, and to behave gently towards everyone. For at one time, we too were foolish...But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Deliverer was revealed, he delivered us. It was not on the ground of any righteous deeds we had done, but on the ground of his own mercy. He did it by means of the mikveh of rebirth and the renewal brought about by the Ruach HaKodesh, whom he poured out on us generously through YESHUA THE MESSIAH, OUR DELIVERER. He did it so that by his grace we might come to be considered righteous by God and become heirs, with the certain hope of eternal life. You can trust what I have just said, and I want you to speak with confidence about these things, so that those who have put their trust in God may apply themselves to doing good deeds. These are both good in themselves and valuable to the community. But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile. WARN A DIVISIVE PERSON ONCE, THEN A SECOND TIME; AND AFTER THAT, HAVE NOTHING MORE TO DO WITH HIM."

I try to help those that are sincerely searching for the truth. You have sent 9 e-mails that I have read but not answered. Rest assured that if I thought there was a ghost of a chance that it would do you any good, I would have answered. You are so smart that you are outsmarting yourself. I would love to help you, but you are shielding yourself against help. No wonder the Lord told Ezekiel, "the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me." If a person won't hearken unto the Lord, and won't hearken unto Ezekiel, they are not apt to listen to a 73-year-old woman that has studied the Bible as hard as she could go ever since 1960, either.

After the 7-year peace covenant of Dan. 9:27 is strengthened, there will be an approximately 7-year trial that will come upon all the Earth. The last half of the 7 years will be shortened or no flesh will be saved. When the time is shortened, Gog's army will attack Israel.

Eze. 38:16-20 in the Stone Ed. says, the Lord says that when they "advance against My people Israel like a cloud covering the earth. It will be AT THE END OF DAYS that I will bring you upon My land, in order that the nations may know me....on that day that Gog comes against the soil of Israel -- the word of the Lord HASHEM/ELOHIM -- My raging anger will flare up; for in My vengefulness, in the fire of My fury, I have spoken: [I swear] that on that day a great earthquake will take place upon the soil of Israel. They will quake before Me -- the fish of the sea, the bird of the heavens, the beast of the field, every creeping thing that creeps on the ground and EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT IS ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH; the mountains will be broken apart and the cliffs will topple, and every wall will topple to the ground." This is the day that all the towers fall. All the cities of the world will be in shambles.

This may happen within the next 7 years. Just before the wrath of God hits Earth to stop Gog's army, mankind will be able to look up and see Y'shua HaMashiach sitting upon his throne in the heavens. It will be the "sign of the Son of Man" (Mt. 24:30, CJB). Eze. 38:23 (Stone) says, "I will make Myself known before the EYES of many nations; then they will know that I am HASHEM (YHVH)."

Isa. 34:4 (Stone) says, "Come close, O nations, to hear, and regimes be attentive; let the earth and its fullness hear, the world and all its offspring. For HASHEM (YHVH) has a fury against all the nations and a wrath against all their legions...All the host of the heavens will dissolve and THE HEAVENS WILL BE ROLLED UP LIKE A SCROLL."

Rev. 6:14-17 (CJB) says of this day, "THE SKY RECEDED LIKE A SCROLL BEING ROLLED UP, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the earth's kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty -- indeed, everyone, slave and free -- hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?" I hope you wake up before you see the Sign of the Son of Man. Maybe you could be among the 144,000 Israelites that will be caught up to Heaven just before God's wrath hits Earth.

An "enormous blazing mountain (asteroid, the curse of Zech. 5) was hurled into the sea (the Mediterranean). (Rev. 8:8 (CJB).

Zeph. 2:1-5 (Stone) says of that day, "Improve yourselves and improve each other, O nation without desire: before the decree is born, the day you will become like chaff; before HASHEM'S burning wrath comes upon you; before the day of HASHEM'S anger comes upon you. Seek HASHEM, all you humble of the land who have fulfilled His law; seek righteousness, seek humility. PERHAPS YOU WILL BE CONCEALED (i.e., caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) ON THE DAY OF HASHEM'S ANGER. For Gaza will be deserted; and Ashkelon become a wasteland, they will drive out Ashdod's residents at noon; and Ekron will be uprooted. Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast."

Dan. 9:24-27 (Stone) is very important for us to understand. It says, "Seventy septets (70 x 7 = 490 years) have been decreed upon your people (Israelites) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem (BC 454) until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets, and for sixty-two septets (both together totaling 483 years) it (Jerusalem) will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times. Then, after the sixty-two septets (483 - BC 454 + 1, no zero year = 30 AD), THE ANOINTED (MASHIYACH, MESSIAH) ONE WILL BE CUT OFF (KARATH, DESTROYED) AND WILL EXIST NO LONGER (I.E., MESSIAH WAS KILLED IN 30 AD); the people (Romans) of the prince (the False Prophet) will come will destroy the city and the Sanctuary (40 years later; Eze. 4:6;, in 70 AD); but his end will be [to be swept away as] in a flood. Then, until the end of the war (Armageddon), desolation is decreed. He (the False Prophet) will forge a strong covenant with the great ones (probably leaders of the UN) for one septet (7 years); but for half of that septet (the latter half, the Great Tribulation) he (the False Prophet) will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering (because he desecrates the Temple, II Thess. 2:4), and the mute abominations (idols) will be upon soaring heights, until extermination (caused by the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacting the Mediterranean Sea) as decreed will pour down upon the mute [abomination]."

The strengthening of the covenant seems close now. The Messiah will come in the air to catch up his Bride before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Only the righteous will be in this Bride group. Isa. 57:1,2 (Stone) says, "The righteous one perishes (abad, escapes, vanishes), and no man takes it to heart; men of kindness are gathered in (acaph, removed, evacuated), with no one understanding that because of the impending evil the righteous one was gathered in" (acaph, removed, evacuated).

We are waiting for the Messiah to come and take us to his Father's home until the indignation is accomplished. There may not be much more time for you to accept Y'shua Messiah in time to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. He died as our Passover, the perfect sinless sacrifice required by the Law. He is the only Messiah that ever was or ever will be, and he is the son of David, born in Bethlehem, crucified and resurrected just outside of Jerusalem. No one today can officially prove his lineage for the official genealogy records were burned in 70 AD. This is the Messiah that has two natures. The son of the woman is Y'shua, the human. In him was YHVH, reconciling the world unto himself (II Cor. 5:19).

Isa. 44:6 (Stone) says, "Thus said HASHEM (YHVH), king of Israel AND its Redeemer, HASHEM (YHVH), Master of Legions: I am the first (YHVH, king of Israel) AND I am the last (the Redeemer, YHVH, Master of Legions, your Messiah), and aside from Me there is no God."

> > You logic from Isaiah does not work either, because the verse says he was already born at the time. Indeed Eemuhnoo Ail refers to King Hezekiah, a contemporary of Isaiah. The verse says, "a child HAS BEEN born, a son HAS BEEN GIVEN" not, WILL BE born, not, WILL BE GIVEN.

This is talking to you today. Part is in the past and part is in the future, but not by much. Other prophecies have been stated as if already having taken place, because the Lord will bring it to pass. It is a sure thing, just as sure as if it had already come to pass. Isa. 9:6 (Stone) says, "For a child (Y'shua, Immanuel) has been born to us (circa BC 5), A SON HAS BEEN GIVEN TO US, and the dominion WILL (still future today) rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Adviser, MIGHTY GOD, ETERNAL FATHER, called his name Sar-shalom [Prince of Peace]."

This is the son referred to in Prov. 30:4 (Stone). It says, "Who established all the ends of the earth? (YHVH). What is his name, and what is his SON'S NAME, if you know?" His son's name is Y'shua HaMashiyach." He is the son that "has been given to us." He is the Redeemer, but for his shed blood to wipe away our sins, each one of us has to accept him as our Saviour. II Cor. 5:7 (CJB) says, "for we live by trust, not by what we see." The just shall walk by faith.

Heb. 9:27 (CJB) says, "Just as human beings have to die once, but after this comes judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to BEAR THE SINS OF MANY, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to deliver those who are eagerly waiting for him." I am eagerly waiting for Him. I'm so sorry that you are not. You are going to need Him.

I wish you well, and hope you will be saved. Without Y'shua Messiah to save us, we would all be on a slick slide to Hell. Shalom and agape

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