Pro and Con 882

Posted 3-20-02

Shelly asks us to "Please Pray for Arni and Elwyn (I'm adding Shelly)...."Please agree with us that NO weapon formed against us will prosper."

My note

I have been reading Artscroll's Stone Edition Tanakh (Old Testament), usually omitting the Commentary. Having read the prophecy books, I turned to Genesis. However, this morning, I happened to read the comments and was astonished. See what you think. Emphasis is mine.

Gen. 32:25-31 (Stone) says, "Jacob was left alone and A MAN (iysh, male human, not malak, angel) wrestled with him until the break of dawn. When he perceived that he could not overcome him, he struck the socket of his hip; so Jacob's hip-socket was dislocated as he wrestled with him. Then he said, "Let me go, for dawn has broken." And he said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." He said to him, "What is your name?" He replied, "Jacob." He said, "NO LONGER WILL IT BE SAID THAT YOUR NAME IS JACOB, BUT ISRAEL, " FOR YOU HAVE STRIVEN WITH THE DIVINE (Elohiym, God) AND WITH MAN(enowsh, a mortal) and have overcome." Then Jacob inquired, and he said, "Divulge, if you please, your name." And he said, "Why then do you inquire of my name:" And he blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel (Pnuw'el, FACE OF GOD [Elohiym]) "For I HAVE SEEN THE DIVINE (ELOHIYM, GOD) FACE TO FACE, yet my life was spared."

Stone Edition Commentary: "32:25-32. The struggle with THE ANGEL. This confrontation was a cosmic event in Jewish history. The Rabbis explained that THIS "MAN" WAS THE GARDIAN ANGEL OF ESAU (Rashi), in a human guise. The Sages teach that every nation has an angel that guides its destiny as an "intermediary" between it God. Two nations, however, are unique: Israel is God's own people and just as Esau epitomized evil, so HIS ANGEL IS THE PRIME SPIRITUAL FORCE OF EVIL -- SATAN HIMSELF. Thus, this battle was the eternal struggle between good and evil, between man's capacity to perfect himself and Satan's determination to destroy him spiritually.
32:29. The verse explains the name Yisrael as a combination of (Hebrew letters...), TO PREVAIL, OVER (Hebrew letters...) THE DIVINE, i.e., the angel."

I looked at that picture of the bowshock, LL Orionis, in Orion again.

Only now do I see that it suggests a ram with his head down as if to butt something. The bow forms the horns. The face is short and looking down. I covered up the lower part, then I could see the face. Part of the back, the front leg and foot are also suggested.
Tuesday's total lunar eclipse will paint the moon red (MSNBC)
Antarctic Ice Shelf Collapses - Biggest Event Of Last 30 Years
2-19-2 -

Incoming email

I came across the following report on the Internet this morning:
March 19 ? An asteroid as wide as a Boeing 747 narrowly missed Earth this month ? and we never knew it was coming. The case of asteroid 2002 EM7 has drawn attention to the gaps in the planet's infant system for monitoring potential threats from space.

[AT ITS CLOSEST, the space rock was about 288,000 miles (463,000 kilometers) from Earth on March 8, according to asteroid-watchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Italy's University of Pisa. That's just a bit farther away than the moon ? (1.2 times the distance to the moon) spitting distance in astronomical terms.

But it wasn't detected until four days later, by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Lincoln Laboratory. There are two reasons why it was completely missed, scientists say.

For one thing, the rock came at us literally out of the blue, from the big blind spot on Earth's sunward side. Objects that pass through Earth's orbit almost always have to be spotted in the night sky first....

The second problem has to do with the asteroid's size. Asteroid 2002 EM7 is thought to be 165 to 330 feet (50 to 100 meters) wide, or in the same ballpark as the 196-foot wingspan of a 747. That's less than a tenth as wide as the asteroid that may have killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, but still big enough to create a blast as powerful as a nuclear bomb if it were to hit Earth.]
God bless you & Ed, keep up the good work - you are an encouragement to many!

My reply

Thanks for the news. It is scary to think that an asteroid could hit Earth before our astronomers could see it. However, I don't think they would have time to do anything about it if they saw it coming, and Earth can't duck an incoming stone. Agape
Cheney Pushes Arafat and Saddam into Same Corner
DEBKAfile -
19 March: When US Vice President Richard Cheney began his whirlwind Middle East tour, only one regional leader was under US ultimatum. When he left, on Tuesday, March 19, there were two: Yasser Arafat and Saddam Hussein. Neither is expected to surrender.

DEBKAfile’s US and Israeli sources report that, as Cheney headed for his broadcast joint news conference with Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, US envoy Anthony Zinni sped to Ramallah. He was instructed to give Arafat due warning: Take a week to toe the US line - or face the consequences....

Cheney broke new ground in yet a second key respect: He was presented by most world media as facing heavy inter-Arab and European insistence on action by the Bush team on the Palestinian issue, as their price for supporting America’s war on Iraq. Had the US leader given in, Arafat would have cheered and the Iraqi campaign receded into an uncertain future.

However, the vice president turned this equation round; he hitched the Arafat-Palestinian problem to the Iraqi issue. This put Saddam on the spot. Now, if Arafat meets America’s truce demands, Iraq stands to lose its forward line of defense against a US offensive and the option of opening a second front to ease US pressure.

In Cheney’s hands, the two ultimatums tacitly merged into one....

Like Arafat, Syrian president Bashar Assad, was cold-shouldered by the US vice president, who skipped Damascus in his tour. Assad will not have missed the ultimatum dealt out to Arafat, and will understand that he too has been put on notice by Washington to abandon his ties with the Hizballah and Baghdad, or else.
Mark Rouleau (19 Mar)
"NY TImes- As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting" By MICHAEL MASSING

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions — the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years — have gained wide acceptance among non- Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity — until now....

My note

I knew we would have our modern Pharisees. Here they are. They are even apostate to Judaism. Don't they know they will bring the wrath of God upon themselves? Do they ever read the prophecies?

Incoming email

Re: 881 - Excellent! Agape

My reply

Thanks. Gee! I'll have to go back and read it. :o)

Incoming e-mail--2002, a well-marked year

I thought you'd be interested in this story from Science@NASA: Of course, from the reference point of the sun's magnetic field the EARTH WOULD BE DOING A FLIP!
The Sun Does a Flip
...February 15, 2001 -- You can't tell by looking, but scientists say the Sun has just undergone an important change. Our star's magnetic field has flipped.

The Sun's magnetic north pole, which was in the northern hemisphere just a few months ago, now points south....

The Sun's magnetic poles will remain as they are now, with the north magnetic pole pointing through the Sun's southern hemisphere, until the year 2012 when they will reverse again. This transition happens, as far as we know, at the peak of every 11-year sunspot cycle -- like clockwork....

Incoming e-mail

FWD: Michael John Rood - Jerusalem
Subject: The aviv barley and declaration of the new year from Jerusalem...They found aviv barley on Mount Zion just a few hundred yards from the Temple Mount!

...the MJC (Modern Jewish Calendar) indicated the beginning of the month two days earlier - at sundown on Wednesday. That was 8 hours before lunar conjunction. The moon sat below the horizon 31 minutes before sun! The Jewish calendar and Passover will be two days off from the corrected calendar this year...

Post on 5Doves site
"My piece of the puzzle", by Ellen Gonzalez (15 Mar)

...Somewhere I was reading about Elijah's rapture, so I turned to II Kings 2 and read the account of Elijah's travels the day of his departure. He began at Gilgal, where he left with Elisha, and went to Beth-el. The sons of the prophets there came out to Elisha and asked him if he knew that the Lord was going to take his master away THAT DAY, to which he replied , "Yes, I know it". Then they proceeded on to Jericho, where the same thing happened, then on to the Jordan River. For some reason I decide to flip over to my Bible map and follow his journey on the day that he was raptured. So I put my pen at Gilgal, drew a line to Beth-el, then to Jericho, then on to the Jordan, and then for some reason, back to the starting point of Gilgal. Immediately I saw what the Holy Spirit had drawn with my hand, and exclaimed aloud, " It's the fish symbol! The 153 fish will be drawn up in the net!"

I then called Laura and told her to grab a pen and trace the journey on her Bible map. She did, but got a few straight lines, not the fish that I got . Why did I draw curved lines, and not straight lines as a normal peson would draw when connecting two points? And why is the only dot, representing the town of Ai (eye), inside my fish, where the EYE would be? I also noticed that this fish/journey began at the east, like the lightning, and went to the west, then ended at the Jordan River, which we know represents crossing over into the Promised Land! And further, that the Jordan River, meaning "descending", begins at the Sea of Galilee, where Jesus told the disciples to draw in the fish ( John 21:6) and descends straight down to the DEAD SEA ( the whole world being dead to the Truth?)

Reading further in II Kings, Elisha asked for a double portion of the spirit, and Elijah told him it would be so if Elisha saw him when he was taken away. Elisha DID see it happen, and immediately rent his clothes--- a symbol of grief--- then took up the mantle of Elijah, which fell from him! Do you see the symbolism? Elisha knew and saw what was happening, even grieved over it, and picked up Elijah's garment which fell from him as he ascended. Will the world see us go up, grieve at what is happening, and catch our garments as they fall away?...

My reply

There is more symbolism in Elijah's journey. II Kings 2:1-12 says, "when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven (type of Pre-Wrath Rapture) by a whirlwind, that Elijah (God the Lord) went with Elisha (Salvation of God) from Gilgal (circle, revolution of the wheel. i.e., from the orbiting globe Earth). And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Beth-el (house of God)....And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho (His moon or month; i.e., Tishri 1, Jesus' birthday)....And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan (descending)....And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so...behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it."

By Elisha seeing the 2nd Rapture and getting a double portion of the Holy Spirit makes me think that those that see the 1st Rapture will probably get a double portion too. Psa. 40:1-3 shows that people will see the Pre-Trib Rapture take place. It says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He BROUGHT ME UP also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (out of Earth, as Jeremiah was lifted up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, AND FEAR, AND SHALL TRUST IN THE LORD."

Elijah went up in the fiery chariot, because fire will fall the same day that the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place. Luke 17:29,30,34 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30;Rev. 6:14f)....I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left." Agape

Incoming email

There you go again. Two non-Catholics expounding on the Catholic church when neither of you is Catholic. When you say, "Martha (or whoever) needs our prayers," those who pray for Martha are intermediaries. That is what a priest is, a intermediary. You make it sound like Catholics can't pray to God through Christ. Rubbish. Also, the Lord's Prayer is prayed in every Catholic service. When Bible verses are read, the congregation responds, "Lord, hear our prayer" (not, "priest hear our prayer.") There is also a time for silent prayer to Christ, not to the priest. When a Baptist minister says, "I will pray for you," it is the same as the priest praying for you. Catholics pray for forgiveness by themselves all the time. When sins are confessed to a priest, the priest will ask if you are truly sorry for committing these sins. If you are, the priest may say your sins are forgiven. He doesn't mean he forgives them, he means God/Christ forgives. The priest is a helper to the penitent. When a person joins a Baptist church for the first time, the minister may ask the person a series of questions in order to determine if the person is really making a statement that they recognize their need to have a savior and determine if they have asked forgiveness for their sins. The minister then makes a decision whether or not the person is sincere and then asks the church to admit them to membership. Did the minister forgive the sinner? No.

Why do many people call their minister when trouble arises? Because they feel their minister has a special relationship close to God/Christ and can help them get through their trouble. That is totally acceptable, why would a priest be any different? He wouldn't, it's the same. A priest who was our friend visited my husband almost every day for two years when he was very ill. The priest never forgave sins, he can't, but he prayed for him every day. Unless you have been there, don't profess to know.

You may write me and tell me "X" told you his/her priest forgave their sins therefore you are positive that is the way it is in the Catholic Church. Rubbish. There are many people in many faiths who do not exactly understand the fundamentals of their church. There are those who study and are close to their church beliefs and those who do not study and are not close to their church beliefs.

When the rapture happens, I hope you will do a role call and count the Catholics. We will be there. Love

Incoming email

There is ONE sobering thought I haven't been able to put out of my mind. The Bible teaches that one day, the nations of the world will join together to finally destroy Israel. And they almost do so too but right in the nick of time, Messiah comes to save them. What if...the person the Jews have been hating and fighting against so long is the one who comes to rescue them from complete destruction? Maybe this is was causes the weeping...Ironic isn't it?

My reply

Yes. Just wait until they find out that YHVH king of Israel is also YHVH of hosts the Redeemer (Isa. 44:6). The Son of God is the one that has dealt directly with mankind from the first. He is the creator. He was seen by Abraham. He was seen as the angel of the Lord. Joh 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God (the Father) at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" ("made Him known," Weymouth).

The preincarnate Christ is the one that gave Israel the commandments at Mt. Sinai. Isa. 48:16-18 says, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (the Father), and his Spirit, hath sent me" (YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer, Christ). Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."

Jesus/Yeshua will be seen on his throne in the sky (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f) at the junction of this age and the millennial Day of the Lord. The Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place in "that night" (Luke 17:34) before the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on that Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3). After that Rapture, all Israel will be saved. Isa. 66:8 says, "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." The fig tree will finally have much fruit. That remnant of Israel will live on into the Millennium on Earth.

I think this will take place 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). Agape

Incoming email

FWD from 5D: muslim symbol in heavens morning of 9/11
according to a recent book entitled "A Voice In The Heavens", by Robert Wadsworth, there was a very unusual heavenly sign that took place, just before the attack.

Early in the morning hours, over Manhattan, there was a very significant image displayed. The waning crescent moon passed over the planet Saturn, forming a very interesting symbol. As most of you know, the predominant Moslem symbol, displayed in Islamic flags, shows a crescent moon encompassing, or aligned with, a single star, which, according to some sources, represents the planet Saturn.

On the night before the attack on the twin towers of the WTC, there was a similar sign, as the planet Saturn became aligned with the crescent moon - just as the Islamic symbol illustrates. I'm not advocating astrology, nor am I suggesting that the stars have "power" over our lives; but this certainly portrays a very obvious picture, to anyone familiar with international politics.

I've heard of this "coincidence" from a couple of sources, who even proffered an explanation of its meaning. However, I believe there is an even more obvious meaning than even the ones they suggested. As we all know, the symbol of the nation of Israel is the "Star of David", which is neither biblical in origin, nor did David have anything to do with its inception. It is actually an occultic "hexagram", . . . and it seems to have originated from the Kabbala's occultic practices.

The prophet Amos speaks of Judah's backsliding into Canaanite idolatry: "But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god which ye made for yourselves." (Amos 5:26) Stephen also recounted this idolatry, involving the "star of Ramphen", which particularly provoked the ire of those who stoned him.

Now comes the interesting part. Most commentators agree that both Chiun and Ramphen represent the planet Saturn! We also know that the Islamic god "Allah" is, in reality, the ancient Midianite moon god.

So what does this all mean? If we look carefully at the juxtaposition of the two objects, we see an obvious, almost overwhelming symbolic conquest taking place: The crescent moon god, Allah, of the Moslems, is symbolically swallowing up the star of the Israelites, Saturn. Just to add a little extra spice, this "sign" appeared within the constellation Gemini, meaning "the twins".

My reply

Thanks for the interesting information.

Act 7:43 says, "Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon." We are not to make any figures to worshp them. We are not to worship any created thing, either. We are to worship the Creator only.

The JFB Commentary says, "the star of your god--R. ISAAC CARO says all the astrologers represented Saturn as the star of Israel."

We are not to fool with astrology. However, Saturn being the star of Israel and Israel's flag being a star are interesting correlations, since the planet Saturn actually has a hexagon shape at the north pole (picture below). I don't worry about the hexagram's occultic connection, because Satan counterfeits the true to confuse mankind. Luke 21:25 literally says that there are to be signs in the Sun, Moon and Constellations. We need to keep our eyes open so we don't miss them. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Comment on paradise
concerning your discussion with our messianic brother about the compartments in the earth, you said, . . .

>>>I can't think of any scripture that calls this compartment paradise.

What about Luke 23:43. Jesus said to the repentant thief on the cross, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." That very day Jesus was not in heaven, but in that compartment in earth where the old testament saints were located, called Abraham's bosom or paradise. Since we see Paul taken up to a place called paradise in heaven after his resurrection, I personally believe that the two places are one and the same. I believe that when Jesus released the captives, (the saints in the compartment in the center of the earth) and took them with Him to heaven, He also supernaturally transported their holding place, paradise to heaven, since it had already served it's purpose. Now when a believer dies he goes directly to heaven, for Paul writes that now, "to be absent from the body (through death) is to be present with the Lord. Your brother in Jesus

My reply

> > What about Luke 23:43. Jesus said to the repentant thief on the cross, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." That very day Jesus was not in heaven, but in that compartment in earth where the old testament saints were located, called Abraham's bosom or paradise.

Of course! Mat 12:40 says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Thank you so much. I had said it was paradise in another e-mail, and had thought that for years and years, then at that particular time, I couldn't remember why I had thought that. I should have saved that e-mail as a draft and looked at it again the next day. I hope I remember that lesson.

< < He also supernaturally transported their holding place, paradise to heaven

For me, I have no problem with an earthly one and a heavenly one. I think there is an earthly and a heavenly Garden of Eden, an earthly and a heavenly Jerusalem, an earthly and a heavenly Zion. In Eze 28:13, it says of Satan, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God," then mentions the symbolic gem stones that I think represent the planets. So that Eden could refer to both the earthly and heavenly ones. Agape

Incoming email

Re: a word of thanks,AGAPE
P&C 881 was so wonderful.Thank you for it. Also endless thanks for a P&C without commentaries from non-believers. They should create thier own websites to wallow in.It is difficult enough to be a Christian in this world full of non-believers. They have more than ample opportunity to become believers. Myself,and others ,I'm sure, come to you with your blessed understanding and knowledge to learn,grow,and prepare ourselves,with your assistance ,for the Bride groom.Non-believers are trying to alter and confuse some of us from our goal. I believe you have given all the tools anyone needs to be saved. Better than anyone I know. If some reject the Gospel,that is thier choice.They should not be allowed to try to alter others. Thyose of us who are trying with all our might,and few resources,need you,love you,and thank God for you. God Bless you. Happy Birthday to Ed ,May we wish him greetings in Heaven,all together,this year!!! Love ,In Him, to you

My reply

Thanks from both of us. You know how the Jews say, "Next year in Jerusalem." How about this year in New Jerusalem? I sure am hoping for it. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Catholics confessing sins to a priest
As a former Catholic, and unless things have changed recently, venial sins "the smaller ones" may be confessed to God directly, but Mortal sins, "the big ones" must be confessed to a priest in order to obtain forgiveness. Mortal sins are like missing Mass on Sunday through your own fault, murder, adultery, not going to confession at least once a year, not going to Communion during Eastertide, and there are many others.

My reply

Thanks. It's strange how the Pharisees added things to the Law, making a yoke too great to bear. In Acts 15:10, Peter said, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

When the gospel went out to the Gentiles, the yoke was made easy. The examples and types had already been set. In Mt. 11:30, Jesus said, "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

In Acts 15:19:20, we see very few restrictions put upon Gentiles, James said, "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

Man had only two main commandments, after Jesus had said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." They were "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Mt. 22:37-40). Christians were to live by "the perfect law of liberty" (Jam 1:25). They were to love God, walk with Him and interact with others in the love of God. God's love could flow through them and out to others.

Enoch was a Gentile prophet before the Flood, before Abraham was born. He earned the right to be caught up to Heaven. Gen. 5:24 simply says, "ENOCH WALKED WITH GOD: and he was not; for God took him."

So after being delivered from the yoke none could bear and living under the easy yoke, the perfect law of liberty, what happened? The church started adding to the yoke again. Why? Do you suppose man just has a penchant for doing things the hard way?

Even in Old Testament days, Mic 6:8 tells us that "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to WALK HUMBLY WITH THY GOD."

Eph 2:8 says, "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." In all eras, man is to "walk by faith" (2Co 5:7 ). Hab. 2:4 says, "the just shall live by his faith." When it was simple and uncomplicated, I don't know why church leaders felt that they had to gradually add umpteen requirements. Agape

   Pro and Con 883   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110

© 1996-2001, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 3-20-02