Pro and Con 886

Posted 4-1-02

I hope all of you had as nice an Easter as we did at our family gathering. Agape, Marilyn

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Re: Face in the wall? have you noticed that the picture you have of the Trumpets being blown on the top, middle of the picture on the wall (top-center), there is a face.

My reply

Thanks. I hadn't noticed that face. I couldn't see the rest of the wall for the trumpets. There is a face that shows up on that wall when it is in shade and seen at a distance. In the picture below, the chin seems to be resting on 3 dark spots, actually plants growing out of the wall.

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Re: Who is Babylon?
My husband was asking me yesterday if the USA is the revived Roman Empire. He mentioned how we cover the Globe, we have a government like Rome, We now have a symbol of Rome. The Same that Hitler used and the Roman Guard used. Are we part of or will we be part of the EU? If so are we one of the Kings that will be removed? What are your thoughts on this and are we anywhere in Scripture?... Thank you everyone for support, God Bless! I hope we will all see each other soon!

My reply

> > if the USA is the revived Roman Empire

I don't think so. However, look at 1Ch 17:21. I think this United States is this nation. It says, "WHAT ONE (ECHAD, UNITED) NATION in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?"

> > Are we part of or will we be part of the EU?

Neither that I can foresee. Under the banner of the UN (or OWG), the 10 kings will probably rule over the 10 regions that this world has already been divided into. The covenant of Dan. 9:27 (Oslo Accords?) will be confirmed, or strengthened, "with MANY for one week" (of years). The many could be the EU or the UN. I lean toward the latter, because the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 will be over the world. Rev. 13:7 says, "power was given him over ALL kindreds, and tongues, and NATIONS." I expect this man to be the Tribulation Pope, the man that rides on the scene as a prince of peace on a white horse in Rev. 6. The Beast has a "bow" (toxon, simple fabric), so we will understand that he is a religious leader, a man of the cloth.

> > are we one of the Kings that will be removed?

I don't know, but it seems like that would be hard to do. Agape
US Votes with Thirteen UN Security Council Members for Resolution Calling for Israeli Withdrawal from Palestinian Cities, Including Ramallah – Without Time Limit. Syrian Delegate Boycotts Vote in Protest
The San Francisco Gate reports: "'The crazier the idea, the better.'

That was the directive from Romano Prodi, president of the European Commission, the European Union's executive arm, to a group of designers and thinkers who were asked for suggestions on how to create a single European capital.
NEW GLOBAL COURT MOVES CLOSER TO REALITY 3-27-02 As of Wednesday, 139 countries have signed a 1998 treaty to establish the International Criminal Court and 56 of them have ratified it. A total of 60 ratifications by national legislatures is needed for the tribunal to be established.
Unusual Military Movements in Arab Countries – Despite Israeli Assurances
29 March: Israel’s extended military offensive against Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat’s Ramallah stronghold, launched Friday morning, March 29, quickly took on a wider regional context. By afternoon, DEBKAfile’s military sources began to pick up signs of unusual military movements in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

The military operation was vital, Israel explained, not only to isolate Arafat and cut off his terror machine, but to uncover the vast stores of secret weapons he has amassed in violation of the Oslo Framework Accords he signed with Israel in 1993. Israel intelligence had learned that Arafat hid these forbidden depots beneath Palestinian Administration buildings in the government compound in Ramallah. As Israeli tanks and bulldozers advanced through the compound during the day, huge tunnels came to light containing an array of weaponry, including anti-tank and anti-air missiles – apparently only one section of a many-branched storage system.

Under the headquarters of Col. Tawfiq Tirawi’s Palestinian General Security Service, Israeli elite units turned up a large bunker in which were stacked hundreds of M-72 LAWS (Light Anti-Tank Weapons). A similarly packed store was concealed under the Palestinian Authority prison, also captured by Israel forces.

Bunkers under Arafat’s offices were found to contain electronic surveillance devices for tracking Israeli military movements, as well as detailed diagrams of the bases and movements of senior Israeli officers stationed in the Ramallah region, with notes on the security details guarding them and their routines. Also found were aerial maps of at least one Israel air base.

Israel’s military and intelligence command ordered military bulldozers to systematically break through suspect buildings in the compound for two purposes: To uncover the illicit weapons stores and to leave Arafat isolated in his undamaged office and living quarters amid the ruins of his compound.

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Arafat's removal
From: Jim Bramlett, 4-1-02
Remember the New Zealand pastor's claimed visitation and word from the Lord in November, 2000? He said he was told that Arafat's "removal" would be the last sign before the rapture, and that his removal would result in turmoil and chaos among the Palestinians. Are we seeing this some to pass?

See story below -- U.S. arranges for Arafat's removal, er, exile to Morrocco.
U.S. arranges for Arafat's exile in Morocco Special to World

The United States has found safe haven for beseiged Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. U.S. officials said the Bush administration has obtained approval from Morocco to provide asylum to Arafat. The officials said that over the past few days U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell contacted Arab and Islamic countries in an effort to end the Israeli takeover of Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah. "We have found a place for Arafat," a U.S. official said. "The problem is that Arafat doesn't want to leave just yet."

Officials said that one of the obstacles to Arafat's exile is his insistence that he bring with him scores of aides and Palestinian insurgents wanted by Israel. The insurgents include up to 70 Fatah and Hamas agents accused of being responsible for the wave of suicide bombings in Israeli cities.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has refused Arafat's demand to leave with the scores of people trapped in his office and that of Palestinian Authority security chief Col. Jibril Rajoub. Rajoub is believed to be harboring at least 70 Palestinian insurgents in his complex in nearby Betunia.

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Re: P & C 884, true
As a former Catholic, I can bear witness that the first 2 posts in p&c 884 are substantially correct regarding Catholic doctrine. The more sophisticated Catholics "vererate" the saints, not worship them, but this may be a fine point lost on some of the more undereducated Catholics, those in the third world, etc. Statues are there to remind you of the saint and not be worshipped, but again, this may be a fine point lost on some Catholics.

Catholics are required to believe, on pain of sin, that a priest can forgive their sins. This is based on the biblical quote "Whose sins ye shall forgive..."

When I went to St. Dominic's school in Kingsport, TN in the 1960's, they were still teaching that salvation outside the Catholic Church was not possible. This upset me greatly as my mother was Presbyterian.

The RC church as an institution and its rubrics and sacraments are central and essential for salvation for a Catholic. It is correct that confession to a priest is required, in fact it is a Mortal sin not to confess your sins to a priest at least once a year, as I recall. There are 6 commandments of the church, which are given exactly the same weight and seriousness as the 10 commandments of God.

6 Commandments of the Catholic Church
As I recall, they are:
1. Attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation
2. Fast and/or abstain from meat on the days appointed.
3. Receive Communion during the Eastertide (Easter-Ascension day)
4. Confess sins to a priest at least once a year.
5. Tithe/contribute to the church
6. Not to marry within the 3rd degree of kindred, or at forbidden times.

Interesting that there are 6 of them (the number of man)

These carry the same weight as the biblical 10 commandments, and violation of any of them is a mortal sin, as I recall. (Die with a mortal sin on your soul and the Catholic Church says you go to Hell).

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Subject: just small thing
I just wanted to tell you this, I e-mailed you end of november and asked you that what if 19. dec just comes and goes and nothing happens. I felt very depressed if Jesus wouldn't return by then, i had big problems in this world, financial troubles and personal troubles. But then, on that very same day, 19. december, things changed. I got new job and my mind got peace from worldly troubles and today, all of my financial and personal troubles are all gone and i even have got new computer with high speed internet connection which helps me to read more about Rapture and Bible. Everything is so good now.

Only thing that I feel so stupid that i questioned God because of my troubles. When Jesus says that you can trust Him, you should really trust Him! I thank you Jesus. I also understand now much better, that even if God would decide that there would no Rapture at all, I'd know that Jesus takes care of me and He is everything I need.

I'm now more mature in my belief and that's because I am waiting for Rapture to happen. I think that Rapture is much bigger thing than we think and it will be very majestic event. Thats all :)(and you should know too that God uses you to show and tell VERY big things!)Waiting to see Jesus face to face

My reply

Thank you Lord. I appreciate your letting me know. It's not such a small thing, either. Agape

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This is what the Bible teaches concerning a final, universal salvation through Jesus Christ alone. The terrible translation of "aion" and "aionion" as "eternal" have contradicted all these Scriptures since who knows when. When the Bible talks about our "aionion" God, it does not mean He only lives for an "age"--No. He is the God of the ages. We were created by the Eternal God, and all of us will live forever--even the "bad guys." But we can have "aionion life" (Eternal life through Christ alone) and the those who have not believed the Gospel ---to the really bad guy's get an "aionion" attitude adjustment. When they come out of the lake of fire, they will be just as happy as we: 1 Cor 15:23-28)

"Aionion" punishment lasts just as long as "aionion" bliss before the "aion" ends. It's as simple as that. Aion should never have been translated "eternal." Youngs has it right, an "aion" always ends. Aionion applied to God means merely that He is the God the the "ages!" People screwed up when they translated that word "eternal" Then they went on to translate as "eternal" things that lasted only an age! God is before ALL the ages, He created all of them, and He and every human being that has ever existed will be with Him eternally --long after the final "age" ends in 1 Cor 15"23-28.

It is going to be great. We will see our loved ones again, there will be no crime. Everyone will love everyone, and we will all love God with all our might, mind, and strength--and our neighbors as ourselves. Forgiveness, and beyond forgiveness to "agape" unconditional love. As this article points out, even the earth and the animals will experience this: Ro. 8:19,21

Check this article out. THIS is the real good news. It's certainly not the news that your unsaved father will roast in hell and the lake of fire for as long as you will be in heaven because God did not save him by grace. This shows you the truth of the Bible. That grace really means grace: a person cannot save himself! If a person calls on Christ to be saved, it is because God had him do it. The person "feels" he has free will, but the Bible teaches him later that he called on Christ because it was "granted" him only:

"No man can come unto me except it were given unto him of My Father." John 6:65 See why eternal punishment is wrong?

My reply

Re: Hell is a dead end
Judas Iscariot was led by Satan to think he had the situation of those days all figured out. He may have thought Jesus would resist the authorities and set up his kingdom. He had seen Jesus perform miracles, and probably expected him to work another, which he did, but not the kind Judas may have been thinking about. Satan wanted to kill the heir, as in Mat 21:38. It says, "But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance."

Both Judas and Satan regret that day. Thinking themselves wise, they became fools and made a huge mistake. They outsmarted themselves. Mat 27:3-5 says, "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

To err is human, but to the best of our ability, we must try to guard ourselves against being led astray by reasonable sounding words without sound reasoning to back them up. If the first premise is even partly wrong, the doctrine built on it may be shaky, and the conclusion can be wrong.

> > When the Bible talks about our "aionion" God, it does not mean He only lives for an "age"--No. He is the God of the ages. We were created by the Eternal God, and all of us will live forever--even the "bad guys." But we can have "aionion life" (Eternal life through Christ alone) and the those who have not believed the Gospel ---to the really bad guy's get an "aionion" attitude adjustment. When they come out of the lake of fire, they will be just as happy as we: 1 Cor 15:23-28)

> > "Aionion" punishment lasts just as long as "aionion" bliss before the "aion" ends. It's as simple as that. Aion should never have been translated "eternal."

We can dust off our hands; the problem's solved, huh? Trouble is, sometimes things are not as simple as we think. You believe God is eternal, believers are eternal, and the bad guys are eternal. Then tell me why Jesus had to die so that we could have eternal life?

I thought the matter sounded deadly serious in John 3:14-16. It says, "as Moses lifted up the serpent (of brass, which means CURSED) in the wilderness, even so MUST (dei; IT IS NECESSARY) the Son of man be lifted up ('being made a CURSE for us: for it is written, CURSED is every one that hangeth on a tree,' Gal 3:13): That whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH (apollumi, to destroy fully, die, lose, mar, perish), but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH (apollumi), but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Why do we have to be changed, made immortal, if everyone already has eternal life? 1Co 15:51-53 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY (athanasia, DEATHLESSNESS, immortality)."

Some words can mean a variety of things, the meaning to be discerned from the context. In the Bible, we can compare with other scriptures to discern the correct meaning. For instance "hour" is 5610 hora, an "hour" (literally or figuratively):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, (even-)tide, (high) time.

2Ti 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." We should study and determine whether "aion" is a word with different meanings, the meaning to be determined by the context.

2Co 5:1 says, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." The word eternal is Strong's166, aionios, from 165, aion; PERPETUAL (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). Strong's 165 is aion, prop. an age; by extension PERPETUITY (also past); by impl. the world; spec (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): Age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), (beginning of the, while the) world (began, WITHOUT END).

> > "No man can come unto me except it were given unto him of My Father." John 6:65 See why eternal punishment is wrong?

The Lord died for the sins of the whole world. He wills that all be saved. That doesn't mean that all will be saved. We are not coerced. Man is given free will. He is tested whether he will obey God or not, whether he will accept the Messiah or not. Man's choice determines his destiny. God knows ahead of time who will and who won't choose to accept Christ. Those that won't, he can still use to bring his prophecies to pass. Of such was Pharaoh. God hardened his heart to bring the Israelites out of Egypt on time and with a certain amount of wealth, for in effect, they plundered the Egyptians. The Egyptians were glad to give the Israelites things and get them out of there before all Egyptians died. The Israelites ended up with the correct things, including gold, to build the Tabernacle--another of God's miracles.

We have been promised eternal life, because we accepted Christ as our own personal Saviour. We will end up with a resurrection body, a soul and a spirit. Non-believers don't have much to look forward to. The first death is death of the body. The second death is death of the soul. Only the spirit is left. Eternal punishment is eternal. Agape

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Re: Feast of Trumpets?
I have read some books by Tim Layhaye, John Hagee, Grant Jeffrey, Tony Evens, Hal Lindsey, Jack VanImpe, Misler. The list goes on. Anyway these men believe that the Rapture will happen during the Feast of Trumpets, although they won't try to speculate in what year because of the No man knows scripture. My understanding from my own searching is that the second rapture will take place on the Feast of Trumpets. The first should take place during the Spring because of the examples in Scripture, Israel's exodus in the Spring, Elijahs rapture, Jesus death and resurrection these events took place in the Spring of the year during Passover. I know there are other scriptures that seem to point to a Springtime Rapture. Have your read any of these authors books? If so what are your thoughts on Feast of Trumpets being the day of our escape?

My reply

I have read some of their books. I agree with your understanding of the timing of the two Raptures. In my head, I feel sure of the Feast of Trumpets Rapture (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. I'm not as sure about the time of the first Rapture, but have always thought Pentecost the most likely. It agrees with Song of Solomon 2:10-14. However, the Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37), and Noah went into the Ark on Cheshvan 17. That is in the fall. Right now, we seem to be on borrowed time. I thought we would be out of here by now.

God has sure caused the covenant of Dan. 9:27 to be known world-wide. We know that the Holy Spirit that is in us, the salt of the Earth, is restraining the appearance of the False Prophet. Israel and the PA just can't seem to get it together yet. Even the Arab Summit meeting didn't go well. People seem to be tripping over themselves in the Middle East. They'll get it together after we're gone. I expect the UN and the Pope to get into it before the covenant is confirmed. Agape

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Speak of the Devil!

What Satan has got to do with a final, universal salvation.

My reply

I don't believe in "a final, universal salvation" or that the Devil was evil from the exact point of his creation. I would be led astray if I believed everything J. Preston Eby said. I hope you are not swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

In "THE SERPENT - Where Did the Devil Come From? J. Preston Eby said:

> > Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he, speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44) far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE....Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.

> > "The SERPENT was more subtil than any BEAST of the field which THE LORD GOD HAD MADE." ...God MADE the serpent, God MADE him with a beastly nature, God MADE him subtil, God MADE him the Devil and Satan, God MADE him a liar and a murderer from the beginning!

I'm sorry to throw cold water on his idea, but Eze. 2813-15 says of Satan, "YOU WERE IN EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, emerald, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and beryl. Gold work of tambourines and of pipes was in you. In the day that you were created they were prepared. YOU WERE THE ANOINTED CHERUB who covers (guards): and I set you, so that you were on the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. YOU WERE PERFECT IN YOUR WAYS FROM THE DAY THAT YOU WERE CREATED, UNTIL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS WAS FOUND IN YOU." Agape

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Re: THE LUCIFER QUESTION Who is he Adam and not Satan!
Check this article out before you contradict Scripture.

My reply

Oh my! I sure hope you don't believe what Elwin R. Roach says. :-)

> > THE LUCIFER QUESTION: Who is he? Adam and not Satan! by Elwin R. Roach
> > ...who could have been the one that was covered with God's selected jewels of glory, bringing light as "Lucifer" into the world as he radiated the beauty each stone possessed? Not Satan, dear ones, not in a million years; it was the only one who could have had such a ministry and was the ambassador of shining glory -- ADAM! ...

I can't even imagine the king of Tyrus (lit., king of the rock), "the anointed cherub that covereth" (Eze. 28:14-16), being Adam. Adam wasn't "upon the holy mountain of God." Adam didn't walk "upon and down in the midst of the stones of fire" (i.e.,in the midst of the planets). Adam won't get cast "as profane out of the mountain of God" or "from the midst of the stones of fire" or "to the ground." Satan fits here, and the Lord said to him, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Isa. 14:12-14 sure doesn't fit Adam, either. Adam didn't fall from heaven. Lucifer did. Adam didn't say, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God," or "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Lucifer did. Lucifer "shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Are we supposed to assume that mankind started off with Adam that was going to hell? I doubt it. Abel, the first child born to Adam and Eve, is making it to Heaven (Heb. 11:4,16). That would have been quite an achievement if he had had Lucifer for a father. To me, Roach's idea doesn't square with Scripture at all. Agape

His reply

I'm beginning to think you are right. I am sorry I sent that to you without checking it more thoroughly. Agape

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