Pro and Con 913

Posted 6-10-02

June 10, 2002 - PHILIPPINES - My Monday departure to Mindanao has been delayed due to rough seas from Typhoon Noguri. The downside of taking a boat is security at ports (US citizens are sometimes targeted for robberies), and of course safety in rough waters (the Philippines have a notorious shipping record, on the average, 1 or 2 passenger ships sink a year in rough waters). This typhoon has moved north extremely fast, and should reach Japan within 24-hours. What is unusual about this typhoon is that it carried very small humidity-cloud content, and was almost invisible on radar. Basically, it was a large tornado the size of a nation, which appeared out of nowhere overnight in the Philippines on the day missionary Martin Burnham was martyred.)

My comment

Things do seem to go boom when such things happen, and believers or not, people still call the extremes of weather an "act of God." They acknowledge him even though they deny his existence.

Pushing for a Palestinian state is asking for some kind of a boom too, as Powell should have realized when he was going to push for it at the United Nations on 9-11-01. It got cancelled then. God is in complete control at all times. He can frustrate evil men's plans, or he can let them have their way. The ultimate boom will take place when the asteroids impact Earth to stop Gog's army that means to annihilate Israel.

Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001, was 23 Elul, 5761, exactly 7 days before Tuesday, Tishri 1, 5762. To me, that seems to bring it into the category of being a warning of what will happen when the towers fall on Tishri 1, 5768, the day I think the asteroids will impact the Mediterranean Sea and Babylon, Iraq.

Isa 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."

Reflecting the fact that the globe will be turned upside down by the asteroid impacts, Isa 30:25 says, "there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall." The seas will be out of control.

Woe to Gaza. Zep 2:1-7 shows who will win the battle over Israel. It says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel, 1948); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you (Sept. 13, 2007/Tishri 1, 5768?). Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (cathar, be absent; i.e., caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD'S anger (Tishri 1, 5768). For Gaza (meaning strong, a goat) shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon (migration, i.e., bedouins, nomadic Arabs) a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod (theft) at the NOON DAY, and Ekron (barrenness, torn away) shall be rooted up. WOE UNTO THE INHABITANTS OF THE SEA COAST, the nation of the Cherethites (who cut or turn away)! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan (that humbles and subdues), the land of the Philistines (those who dwell in villages), I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant. And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks. And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah (i.e., Jews); they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the LORD their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity."

God will reckon with remote nations for contributing to the army of Gog (roof, covering). Rev 16:17-19 says, "the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

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I found a great little freeware interval day calculator at

Plugging in Sept 13, 2007 and backing up 2550 days, we are almost 2 years past that date in Oct, 2000. Even using spring, 2008, we are less than 6 years from that date!

The only thing that makes sense to me, if Sept 2007 is the date, is the 1260 and 1290 days run concurrently, and we are in the first half of the trib now. 1260 days before Sept 13, 2007 is April 1, 2004. If you think the trib is 7 years long, suppose it could be one of those other years you calculated a while back, between now and 2030. Hard to believe the middle east and southeast asia will last much longer without blowing.

What do you think?

Re: a different way of figuring the rapture

Why not take Sept 12, 2007 and subtract 1260 days? You know the trib must be that long at least and must start by then if not before. The rapture would have to be before that point.

My reply

OK. Thanks much for sending me the URL to DL the free calculator, whatdate.exe.

I too figured that April 1, 2004 is 1260 days before Sept. 13, 2007. If we knew the exact number of days of the shortened Great Tribulation, we could determine the date of the beginning of the Tribulation. The Rapture would either be on that day or before it. There must be some way to figure it out. In Mark 13:23, Jesus said, "take ye heed: behold, I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS."

The 1260, 1290, and 1335 years of Dan. 12 do run concurrently, from Mid-Trib. However, Daniel 12 doesn't tell us how much this time is shortened. Since the second 1260 days of the Tribulation are to be shortened, each of the 3 sums of years would be shortened by the same amount.

The main framework seems to be the 7 good and 7 bad years--Tishri 1, 5754 (Sept. 13, 1993), when the Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel, to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), the Day of God that begins the millennial Day of the Lord.

2007 is the 40th year since Israel regained the temple mount and the rest of Jerusalem in the Six-Day War of 1967. The generation born in 1967 will be the ones to see all the prophesied things come to pass on the Day of God that begins the Millennium.

The 7 good years would have ended as the 1st bad year started Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000). The 2nd Intifada started 2 days before that.

Jacob didn't go down to Egypt because of the famine for the first 2 of the bad years. Gen. 45:6,7 says, "For these TWO YEARS hath the famine been in the land: and YET THERE ARE FIVE YEARS. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great (gadowl, exceedingly, high) deliverance (pleytah, ESCAPE)."

The 2nd bad year would start Tishri 1, 5762 (Sept. 18, 2001). It would end Tishri 1, 5763 (Sept. 7, 2002). We are not told exactly when the 1st seal is to be broken, but it has to be after the 1st Rapture, because Jesus is given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth "hereafter" the Rapture (Rev. 4:1; 5:7).

Rev. 3:10 says that we are to be kept "ek," out of, the time of trial that will come upon the whole world after the Rapture. The "apostasia," departure, i.e., the Rapture, must take place before the man of sin (the False Prophet) is revealed. He will be revealed when he confirms, strengthens, the covenant with many (maybe the UN) (Dan. 9:27).

I can't spot a loophole that would allow the Tribulation to start before the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place.

Let's assume that the 5 years of famine remaining after Jacob was transported to Joseph have a parallel in our days, because things happened to them for examples to us upon whom the ends of the ages has come (I Cor. 10:11). First, let's also assume that these 5 years have 360 days each, or 1800 days total. 1800 days before Sept. 13, 2007 is Oct. 9, 2002. If these 5 years have 365 days each, 1825 days before Sept. 13, 2007 is Sept. 14, 2002. That gets us in the ballpark.

What seems most likely is that these 5 years of famine yet to come after the Rapture will run from Tishri 1, 5763 (Sept. 7, 2002) to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). That could indicate that the Rapture would take place on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1, 5763) Sept. 7, 2002, just as the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1, 5768) Sept. 13, 2007. Again, that gets us in the ballpark.

To hone it down further, we can assume that since both temples went up in smoke on Av 10, the temple of the Holy Spirit might go up in clouds on Av 10, 5752 (July 19, 2002). That is the 40th day after Moses sent the spies into the land. Joshua (the Lord, the Saviour) returned on Av 10, bringing the first cluster of grapes to the place where the Tabernacle of God was pitched. The two clusters of grapes mentioned in Song of Solomon 7:7 seem to represent the two groups of raptured people.

Jesus said that he is the vine and we are the branches. One branch bearing fruit was brought back by Joshua/Jesus to the Lord's Tabernacle (dwelling place) on Av 10, which is July 19 in 2002.

Isa 18:3-6 seems to shout, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (kingdoms); and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (nabat, see, look at with pleasure) in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. For afore the harvest (the vintage is in Elul and Tishri, the Jewish month of Av precedes Elul), when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs (with fruit) with pruning hooks, and TAKE AWAY (cuwr, depart, i.e., Rapture of the wise virgins) and cut down the branches (not showing fruit). They (i.e., the foolish virgins) shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains (nations), and to the beasts of the earth (The Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 13): and the fowls shall SUMMER upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them." To me, this seems to place the Rapture this summer. Agape

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Re: spring rapture
I was listening to my Audio Bible tape of Revelation on my way in to work this morning and have some possible confirmation that the Rapture will occur in spring. Hopefully this spring but cant confirm that. I am from New Zealand and being in the southern hemisphere, we are just now getting into the grips of winter so it doesn't feel very springy like it does for you northern hemisphere people.

OK Back to the subject. In Revelation it talks about the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem. Some time around the middle of the tribulation the witnesses are murdered by the antichrist and are left to lie dead in the street for 3 days before they are raised up again by God.
Rev 11: 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

In verse 10 it talks about the people that "dwell upon the earth" being very happy that the 2 witnesses are dead and gave gifts to one another. If the time of the year that this happens is close to Christmas, when people ordinarily give gifts to each other, then people could very well be giving gifts to celebrate their apparent victory rather than the birth of Christ.
Counting back 3 and a half years to the start of the tribulation would bring us to some time in June and therefore a spring rapture just prior to the start of the tribulation.

If this proves to be correct, we only have a window of opportunity between now and the 25th of June (assuming it is this year).

So be encouraged, It cant be too much longer. Blessings

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

My reply

Don't worry. I'm not discouraged. I am glad you figured back from a possible Mid-Trib. It made me look at Rev. 11 again.

Here are my thoughts. Rev. 11 seems to start out with the Pre-Trib Rapture. It says, "RISE (egeiro, awake from sleep, lift up; i.e., Bride saints that can be numbered), and MEASURE (the Bride saints can be numbered; the great multitude of Tribulation saints can't be numbered, Rev. 7:9) the temple of God (i.e., living Bride saints), and the altar (i.e., resurrected dead Bride saints and martyred saints, Rev. 6:9), and them that worship therein" (including the OT saints that came out of their graves after Jesus was resurrected, Mt. 27:52,53).

"Rise" is "egeiro, TO AWAKE, LITERALLY FROM SLEEP, LIFT UP, TAKE UP AGAIN. I used to think this verse was talking about the literal temple. However, I now think it represents the wise virgins awaking from sleep and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air at the Pre-Trib Rapture just before the first 1260 days of the Tribulation begin.

Gen. 41:49 says, "Joseph gathered corn (grain) as the sand of the sea, very much, UNTIL HE LEFT NUMBERING; FOR IT WAS WITHOUT NUMBER." Some of the grain was numbered and some was not. This parallels the Bride group, wheat that can be numbered, and the Tribulation saints, who cannot be numbered. We know that Christ will say "Come up hither" at the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 4:1). If we have any doubts, the two witnesses demonstrate what that means. Rev. 11:11,12 says, "AFTER THREE DAYS AND A HALF (1263.5 days after the Rapture) the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. AND THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD."

The cloud seems to be an important clue. The raptured saints are the spiritual temple of the Lord. 1Co 3:16 says, "Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Two temples burned on Av 10, repeated for emphasis. Will we ascend up to meet Jesus in a cloud as the smoke ascended when the temples burned on Av 10? I Thess. 17 says, "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air."

July 19, 2002 (Av 10), plus 1260 days is Dec. 30, 2005. This is Kislev 29, 5766, the 5th day of Hanukkah, already a time of joy and gift giving. I think one gift is opened each day of the eight.

Hanukkah (meaning dedication) is also called the Feast of the Dedication of the altar and the Festival of Lights. Not only was the temple area brightly lit, but all of Jerusalem was. It commemorated the purifying of the temple in the days of the Maccabees (BC 164), when the old polluted altar was removed and worship of YHVH was restored.

The Feast of Dedication would be a good time for the dedication of a newly finished temple Mid-Trib, and would furnish a good excuse for the False Prophet to sit in the Temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). Moses and Elijah would be there for the dedication. The False Prophet would require them to worship him or bow down to an image. They would refuse, and he would kill them. It all seems reasonable. Everything seems to be coming together now.

The red heifer has been approved. She would not be burned to ashes until she is 3 years old. That would be in 2005--perfect timing for the dedication of a new temple.

I went to The Temple Institute web site today. There are pictures not only of the red heifer, but of The Breastplate of the High Priest, etc.

"IN PROGRESS: The Garments of the High Priest"

Maybe the Rapture will be in the early summer, at the time the spies brought one cluster of grapes to Moses (meaning taken out of the water) where the Tabernacle was set up. The spies returned after 40 days. The Rapture is as the days of Noah, and he did not rise up the day he entered the Ark. He rose up after it rained 40 days and 40 nights.

Gen 7:17 says, "the flood was FORTY DAYS upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and IT WAS LIFT UP ABOVE THE EARTH." We will be lifted up above the Earth at the Rapture. Jesus ascended after a 40 day period (Acts 1:3), and he is the head of the Body of Christ. Maybe we will be raised up after a 40-day period too. Jesus was in the wilderness 40 days, then returned to Jerusalem. The number 40 means testing and probation. Maybe this last 40 days will end our testing. I hope so.

I just looked at the time (12:22 AM) and date (June 9). Sivan 29, when the spies entered the land, started at 6 PM on our June 8th. We have already passed the midnight hour of Sivan 29. Agape

From Five Doves site
Calvin W. Montgomery
"The "Revealing" and the Rapture and "RIGHT NOW"
Posted on: June 7th, 2002

You wrote:
> > I was talking to my prophecy partner last night about the MANY things that are lining up now pertaining to our having to be out of here VERY soon. One thing that I mentioned, and she agreed, was that the "way" II Thessalonians, chapter 2 reads. It seems to me (and it has for a long time) that Paul is saying that "some" would be revealed who the antichrist was and THEN the rapture would occur.

> > 2 Thessalonians 2
> > The Man of Lawlessness

> > 1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the PROPER time.

My reply

The Day of the Lord is the Millennium. It starts at the end of the shortened Tribulation. It can't begin until after the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place.

Also, the Rapture must take place BEFORE the man of sin, the wicked Satan-possessed False Prophet can be revealed.

II Thess. 2:3: (ISV) says, "Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the Day of the Lord) cannot come unless THE REBELLION TAKES PLACE FIRST and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed."

What is the "rebellion" that must take place before the man of sin is revealed? He will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation when he confirms the peace covenant with many (maybe the UN) (Dan. 9:27). Whatever this "rebellion" is, it takes place before the Tribulation starts. We know that the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place before the Tribulation starts.

The problem is solved when we read a different translation. The choice of possible words obscures the meaning in some translations. II Thess. 2:3 in the World English Bible makes it clear. It says, "Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (the Day of the Lord) will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE COMES FIRST and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction."

The "departure" is the Pre-Trib Rapture. It will soon be followed by the revealing of the man of sin. The Greek word translated "departure" is "apostasia." According to the Liddell-Scott-James Lexicon of Classical Greek, "apostasia" means DEPARTURE, DISAPPEARANCE, words that describe the Rapture. "He apostasia" means "the departure" and was so translated in early versions, including Tyndale's translation, Cranmer's version, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible. The departure, or disappearance we call the Rapture, will take place before the man of sin is revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation.

That "he apostasia" means the departure can be grasped when we find out that a kindred word, "apostacion," means divorcement, when one person departs. At the Rapture, the wise virgins depart, and the foolish virgins are left behind.


Gen. 45:6 says, "For these two years (i.e., 2001 and 2002) hath the famine been in the land (bad years): and yet there are five years (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007), in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me (Joseph) before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by A GREAT DELIVERANCE (THE RAPTURE?)." Agape

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Check out 144,000 JEWISH VIRGINS, By Lewis, posted 6-9-02
This is another topic which is largely MISUNDERSTOOD by many who claim these 'virgins' will preach the gospel during the tribulation. Some even CLAIM that ALL the raptured saints will stay on earth for 40 days or however long. These are simply FALSE DOCTRINES because.........

Revelation 7:4 speaks: And I heard the NUMBER of them which were SEALED: and there were SEALED an HUNDRED and FORTY and FOUR THOUSAND of ALL the TRIBES of the CHILDREN of ISREAL.

Revelation 7:9 speaks: After this I beheld, and lo, a GREAT multitude, which NO man could number, of ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD before the THRONE, and before THE LAMB, clothed with WHITE robes, and PALMS in their HANDS.

Revelation 7:13 speaks: And one of the ELDERS answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in WHITE robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14 speaks: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT of great tribulation, and have WASHED their ROBES, and made them WHITE in the BLOOD of THE LAMB.

Revelation 7:15 speaks: Therefore are THEY before the THRONE of GOD, and SERVE HIM DAY and NIGHT in HIS TEMPLE: and HE that sitteth on the throne shall DWELL among them.

Revelation 7:16 speaks: They shall hunger NO more, neither thirst ANY more; NEITHER shall the sun light on them, NOR any heat.

Revelation 7:17 speaks: For THE LAMB which is in the MIDST of the throne shall FEED them, and shall LEAD them unto LIVING FOUNTAINS of WATERS: and GOD shall wipe AWAY ALL tears from their EYES.

We can CLEARLY SEE that ALL those raptured will serve GOD in his throne DAY and NIGHT and will NEVER be exposed to the sun anymore.

The 144,000 Jews which will be raptured are called FIRSTFRUITS because........

Revelation 14:2 speaks: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of MANY waters, and as the voice of a GREAT thunder: and I heard the VOICE of HARPERS harping with their harps:

Revelation 14:3 speaks: And they sung as it were a NEW song BEFORE the THRONE, and BEFORE the FOUR BEASTS, and the ELDERS: and NO man could LEARN that song BUT the HUNDRED and FORTY and FOUR THOUSAND, which were REDEEMED from the EARTH.

Revelation 14:4 speaks: These are they which were NOT defiled with women; for they are VIRGINS. These are they which FOLLOW the LAMB whithersoever he goeth. These were REDEEMED from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and to THE LAMB.

Revelation 14:5 speaks: And in their mouth was found NO guile: for they are WITHOUT fault BEFORE the THRONE of GOD.

We can CLEARLY SEE that they are called FIRSTFRUITS because they were VIRGINS, UNDEFILED, and FOLLOWERS of CHRIST. They will be in HEAVEN before the THRONE of GOD and NOT on earth. His servant, Lewis.

My reply

> > This is another topic which is largely MISUNDERSTOOD by many who claim these 'virgins' will preach the gospel during the tribulation.

I too wonder how some know that this is what the 144,000 Israelites will do during the Tribulation. I'm not saying they won't, but I'd like some scripture proof that they "preach the gospel during the tribulation."

Also, some say that the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the Tribulation. I don't know where that is found in scripture, either. The 1st we hear of them is in Rev. 7. That whole chapter happens after the 6th seal is broken on the last day of this age (6:12) and "the great day of his (Christ's, 6:16) wrath is come" (6:17). Rev. 7 tells us about the Pre-Wrath Rapture that will take place before the 7th seal is broken the next day (8:1) bringing on the asteroid impacts (8:8,10) at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5).

Therefore, the first time we hear about the 144,000 is on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the DAY OF GOD, when the asteroids impact Earth. 2 Peter 3:12 says, "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the DAY OF GOD, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

The 144,000 is the only group I know of that will be added to the Bride group during the Tribulation. They are called firstfruits, because they are part of the Bride group and part of the First Resurrection. They are called virgins, because they have confessed their sins as per I John 1:9. Only the Bride of Christ can sing the "new song" (Rev. 5:9; 14:3).

I think Eze 9:3-6 shows us that the mark (i.e., sealing) will be placed on the Day of God's Wrath, not at the beginning of the Tribulation. It says, "the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and SET A MARK UPON THE FOREHEADS OF THE MEN THAT SIGH AND THAT CRY FOR ALL THE ABOMINATIONS THAT BE DONE IN THE MIDST THEREOF. And to the others he said in mine hearing, GO YE AFTER HIM THROUGH THE CITY, AND SMITE: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary." Agape

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