Israel, Saudis back Bush on Palestinian state plan
Bush has discussed his plan to allow for the establishment of a Palestinian state in 2003. The state would consist of 42 percent of the West Bank and would have limited sovereignty...
The proposal would include negotiations with such a state after its formation....such an entity would be declared at the end of next year and be immediately accepted as a full member of the United Nations.
At that point...Israel and the Palestinians would begin negotiations on the final borders of the state. The Bush proposal envisions that the negotiations would be concluded within three years, or about 2007....
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has agreed to the plan, the sources said. They said Sharon was drawn by the prospect of a long-term interim agreement that could provide a breather from nearly two years of war with the Palestinians.
Clinton presented the plan after a July summit meeting between Arafat and then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak broke down without an agreement....
Talks continued until late January 2001 but ended without agreement just before a special election, in which Barak was soundly defeated by hawkish Ariel Sharon. At that point, both Israel and the United States said their proposals were off the table.
Now Arafat is willing to sign on to the Clinton plan...Arafat said Israel would receive sovereignty over the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem and the Western Wall...
However, Sharon is prepared to offer much less than his predecessor. Sharon insists that all violence must stop before peace talks resume, and then he would propose a long-term interim agreement, during which the Palestinians would maintain control over the areas they now have. The Palestinians have rejected the idea of another interim accord.
Answer:This is an excellent illustration of the problems with relying exclusively on a translation, particularly a Christian translation.
In the KJV translation, Daniel 9:25-26 is translated: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
The primary problem here is that the word moshiach (Hebrew for 'anointed') is used for many purposes other than referring to the Messiah. (The capitalization of Messiah is based purely on conjecture, there is no basis from the text to capitalize these words).
Messiah simply means one who is anointed. The Christian translations tend to selectively translate the Hebrew word moshiach (or similar constructs) as 'Messiah' (with a capital M) whenever it fits into their interpretation, and otherwise translate it simply as 'anointed'. (Indeed, my understanding is that these verses are the only times that the KJV ever translates moshiach as "Messiah", throughout the rest of the Bible it is translated as "anointed".)
The obvious problem with interpreting these two verses as referring to the same "Messiah" is that they are talking about a time period of about 434 years, so we are forced to say that either one or both of these Messiahs was not what we usually mean when we refer to the Messiah, or that the Messiah lived for over 400 years. Obviously the latter is not true. Therefore it is clear that this standard translation is worthless....
24: "Seventy groups of seven years (i.e. Sabbatical cycles) have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city, to terminate transgression, to end sin and to atone for iniquity. To bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies."
The seventy Sabbatical cycles refers to the entire period from the destruction of the first Temple until the destruction of the second. This was a period of about 490 years, or seventy times seven. The suffering during the exile which followed this period would ultimately atone for all of Israel's sins.
After that time the Temple would again be rebuilt by the King Messiah. This is further clarified in the following verses. 25: "Know and understand from this, to return and build Jerusalem [will be] until the anointed prince [which is after] seven Sabbatical cycles. And for sixty-two Sabbatical cycles it shall return [to its former state] and be rebuilt, street and moat, and in troubled times."
We have two time periods in this verse, a fifty-two year period (three years got dropped because they don't make up a cycle) from the destruction of the first Temple until the "anointed prince", and a 438 year period (the other four missing years are added on) during which the second Temple would be rebuilt (including the time of its construction).
The commentators explain that the anointed prince referred to here is Cyrus, king of Persia, as we also find in Isaiah 45:1 "Thus saith the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus,...". Cyrus issued the first decree to allow the rebuilding of the temple fifty-two years after the destruction.
The first Temple was destroyed in the year 3338 (according to the Jewish count from creation, approx. 423 BCE), Cyrus' decree to rebuild was issued in 3390. The second Temple was destroyed in 3828, 438 years later....
26: "And after the sixty-two Sabbatical cycles, the anointed will be cut off and cease to be, and the city and the holy [Temple] will be destroyed by the nation of the prince who will come, and it's [the invading nation's] end shall be in a flood [of God's anger]. And until the final war it [Jerusalem] shall remain a desolation."
The commentaries explain the anointed in this verse is King Agrippus, who was the last king of the Jewish kingdom. The verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, in about 70 CE.
...There is no way that the time periods can be interpreted so that verse 26 could possibly be going on the 30's, let alone that the destruction described did not take place at that time anyways.
Your friend's statement, "that the only one who claimed to be the Messiah at this time was Jesus and as a matter of fact Jesus was the only one claiming to be the Messiah within 300 years of this prophesied date" is problematic at best. There have been numerous false Messiahs in Jewish history, most have been forgotten. There may well have been numerous such individuals at that time, there was certainly an abundance of weird sects popping up (like the Essenes and others), many of which had really strange ideas about the Messiah.
Jesus is only remembered because he succeeded in starting a new religion (actually because Paul succeeded in starting a new religion in Jesus' name). Furthermore, in the year 132, less than a hundred years after the destruction, a rebellion against the Roman empire was begun. It was led by a man called Bar Kochba and had the support of Israel's leading sages. Bar Kochba was a righteous (though ultimately flawed) man who was completely loyal to Judaism. Rabbi Akiva, the greatest sage of his time, believed him to be the Messiah.
Obviously, the rebellion failed but if you are looking for candidates for reincarnation, he comes with much better qualifications than the founder of a small heretical sect. One final note: The famous paragraph in Josephus (Antiquities XVIII:3) about Jesus is an obvious later insertion. There are numerous indications of this both from the context (completely OUT of context) and the content (only a Christian would write that Jesus was "Christ" and the fulfillment of Divine prophecies, and, as is clear from throughout Josephus' writings, Josephus was not a Christian).
That's true. If Dan. 9:25,26 limits the time that the Messiah can appear to 30 AD, and Jesus was ministering in 30 AD, healing, resurrecting the dead, curing the deaf and blind, teleporting a ship instantly from the middle of the Sea of Galilee to the port on the other side, multiplying 5 loaves and 2 fish to feed a crowd of about 5000, etc., we need to learn all we can about this one who said, "I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN...And this is the will of HIM THAT SENT ME, that every one which seeth THE SON, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:38-40). He was more than just a man. He can bring the dead back to life.
Too bad you are going the way of the Pharisees. Jesus said to them, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?Wherefore, behold, I SEND UNTO YOU PROPHETS (only God can do that, you know), and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily (Amen, so be it) I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:33-36). They did, 40 years later, in 70 AD, when Jerusalem and the Temple were burned.
Now we are living in another 40-year period. The resurrection of Israel and her growing leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip) while she was still 19 and classed as young, as at the Exodus. This 40 years of testing and probation will bring you to the Day of God's Wrath. On the day before, the last day of this age, the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky. When the Israelites see that, they will be saved in a day (Isa. 66:8).
The Sun will be darkened. Stones will start to fall from the sky. "And then shall appear the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt. 24:30).
"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man (including Rich?), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus Christ, our Passover Lamb who died for us): For the great day of his (the Lamb's, God's) wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:14-17). Remember what Prov 30:4 asks, "WHO HATH ASCENDED UP INTO HEAVEN, OR DESCENDED? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? WHAT IS HIS NAME, and WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME if thou canst tell?
God has a Son, and he sent his Son to Earth to save you, and you reject Him. I feel sorry for you when you meet his Son. God made his Son the judge. All judgment is of the Son. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath COMMITTED ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (John 5:22,23). You seem unaware that you are not honoring the Father, and you are deliberately not honoring his Son. You will be judged by the Son for that decision.
> > The obvious problem with interpreting these two verses as referring to the same "Messiah" is that they are talking about a time period of about 434 years, so we are forced to say that either one or both of these Messiahs was not what we usually mean when we refer to the Messiah, or that the Messiah lived for over 400 years.
There is one Messiah that comes twice, as the former rain the first time and as the latter rain the second time. Actually, in 30 AD, the Messiah was in the heart of the Earth 3 days and 3 nights, then he was resurrected. Some Old Testament saints were also resurrected that day. They were seen in Jerusalem and were taken up by the Messiah to Heaven on Resurrection Day. The Messiah came back that same day. Then after 40 more days, he ascended to Heaven and is there still. He ever lives to be our redeemer and will come in like manner as he was seen to go up into the clouds 10 days before Pentecost.
Isa. 44:24-28 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy redeemer (the kinsman redeemer), and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (YHVH) that maketh all things (this is the creator himself); that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof: That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers: That saith of CYRUS, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, Thou shalt be built; and to the TEMPLE, Thy foundation shall be laid."
The weeks of years from Cyrus' decree to build the city and the temple to the Messiah's being killed are 7 + 62 = 69. Thus 69 x 7 = 483 years. Dan. 9:25 (LXX) says, "thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command (Cyrus' decree in BC 454) for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until CHRIST (MASHIYACH, ANOINTED CONSECRATED PERSON [AS KING, PRIEST, OR SAINT], MESSIAH) THE PRINCE (NAGIYD, CHIEF RULER) there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks (483 years total); and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted."
After 483 years, "the times shall be exhausted." In other words, the 483 years were exhausted, used up, ended, in 30 AD. The Mashiyach had to come by 30 AD.
483 years - 454 BC + 1 (no zero year) = 30 AD. Whoever you think the anointed prince that was killed is, Daniel's prophecy places him in Jerusalem in 30 AD. Who but Jesus Christ was on the scene in 30 AD that could have been the "MASHIYACH"?
In Mat 23:37, he said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE (the Temple was burned in 70 AD and has never been rebuilt since). For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
Hosea 5:15 says essentially the same thing. First, the LORD speaks, saying, "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
Continuing in Hosea 6:1-3, Israel speaks, saying, "Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days (i.e., 2000 years) will he revive us: in the third day (i.e., millennium) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight (this came true in 1948). Then (after 1948) shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."
The LORD's two comings are as the former rain (i.e., Tishri 1) AND as the latter rain (i.e., Nisan 1, first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year). The LORD came as the Redeemer on Tishri 1. He returned to Heaven in 30 AD. Jerusalem and the Temple were burned 40 years later, in 70 AD. He will return as King on the proper day for a king to begin his reign, on Nisan 1.
The 40 years between 30 AD and 70 AD can be understood from Eze. 4:6. It says, "thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have appointed thee each day for a year."
> > the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing." This was pointed out to me that this prophecy was prophesied in about 538bc.
> > The seventy Sabbatical cycles refers to the entire period from the destruction of the first Temple until the destruction of the second. This was a period of about 490 years, or seventy times seven. The suffering during the exile which followed this period would ultimately atone for all of Israel's sins.
The 2nd Temple was destroyed in 70 BC. I have a book, "Facts About Israel," that the Israeli Embassy sent me. It says, "The kingdom of Judah was conquered in 586 BCE by the Babylonians, who destroyed the First Temple." 586 - 490 = BCE 96. The 490 years doesn't seem to stretch to 70 AD that way. If the year the 1st temple was 538bc, as you said, it won't fit, either. 538 - 490 = BCE 48.
If Israel's sins are all already atoned for, why is Israel not dwelling in peace today? She is back in the land. I know why. Israel's sins are NOT all already atoned for. Isa 66:12 says, "For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend PEACE to her like a river..."
The only Israelites that have their sins atoned for are the Messianic Jews. All others are saddled with their sins, because they have not accepted their Redeemer, their Messiah. Some learn their lessons the easy way. The rest have to learn them the hard way. There is one day coming, the Day of God's Wrath, that will bring the Jews around. The whole nation will be saved when they see the Sign of the Son of Man in that day. I think it will be Tishri 1, 5768/Sept. 13, 2007.
Isa. 66:5-8 says, "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he (i.e., 'my name's sake,' Yahwehshua, Y'shua) shall appear to your joy, and they (your brethren that hated you) shall be ashamed. A voice of noise from the city (Jerusalem), a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies (on the Day of God's Wrath). Before she (Israel) travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, SHE WAS DELIVERED OF A MAN CHILD (Yahwehshua, Y'shua, meaning Yahweh is Saviour). Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion TRAVAILED (on the Day of God's Wrath), she brought forth her children."
These have to learn the hard way. Do you have any idea of what will happen on the Day of God's Wrath? Eze. 38:18-20 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and IN THE FIRE OF MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day (Day of God's Wrath) there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground." The mountains that will fall are 2 asteroid pieces. Before breaking apart, the binary asteroid is twice as long as wide.
Zech. 5:2-4 says, "What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll (rolling thing); the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then said he unto me, THIS IS THE CURSE THAT GOETH FORTH (ORBITS) OVER THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it (one of the 2 stone tablets with the 10 commandments on them); and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet that Israel will accept as their Messiah), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Pope that claims infallibility): and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."
After the binary asteroid breaks apart, probably at the Roche Limit, 11,000 miles out, the piece as big as a mountain comes flaming in. It impacts the Mediterranean Sea.
Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, BEFORE THE FIERCE ANGER OF THE LORD COME UPON YOU, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; SEEK RIGHTEOUSNESS (OBTAINED BY ACCEPTING YESHUA AS YOUR KINSMAN REDEEMER, YOUR SAVIOUR), seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID (caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast." Good bye Arafat, etc.
> > After that time the Temple would again be rebuilt by the King Messiah. This is further clarified in the following verses. 25: "Know and understand from this, to return and build Jerusalem [will be] until the anointed prince [which is after] seven Sabbatical cycles. And for sixty-two Sabbatical cycles it shall return [to its former state] and be rebuilt, street and moat, and in troubled times."
> > We have two time periods in this verse, a fifty-two year period (three years got dropped because they don't make up a cycle) from the destruction of the first Temple until the "anointed prince", and a 438 year period (the other four missing years are added on) during which the second Temple would be rebuilt (including the time of its construction).
I can't believe that you said, "(three years got dropped because they don't make up a cycle)"? Would you even dare to argue with God? He didn't say the "shabuwa" was a Sabbatic Cycle, although it could be if revealed elsewhere. Shabuwa simply means sevened. Stone's Tanach translated it "septets."
There are 70 blocks of 7 years, or 490 years, decreed upon Israel. They are to end when the transgression is finished, when sins are ended, when reconciliation for iniquity is accomplished, when everlasting righteousness is brought in, and "to anoint (mashach) the most (qodesh) Holy (qodesh)." The most Holy one that will be anointed King of kings and Lord of lords is the Son of God.
Dan. 7:13,14 says, "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like THE SON OF MAN came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days (his Father), and they brought him (the Son of God) near before him (his Father). And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
The Son will receive his kingdom on Earth the same day that he is crowned King of kings and Lord of Lords in Heaven. After that will come the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Marriage of the Lamb (the Son), and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It will be on the Feast of Trumpets (I think on Tishri 1, 5768, Sept. 13, 2007). When the judgment is pronounced, the 7 trumpet judgments will hit Earth. That is the Day of God's Wrath, the day that all Israel will be saved.
Zech. 14:1-3 says of that day, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh (1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord), and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather ALL NATIONS (the UN army?) against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."
How did he fight in the day of battle? In Joshua (which means a savior; a deliverer, who was a type of Joshua/Jesus/Y'shua) 10:11, it says, "it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that THE LORD CAST DOWN GREAT STONES FROM HEAVEN UPON THEM unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword."
Only after that Day of God's Wrath can "everlasting righteousness" be brought in (Dan. 9:24). Only on the Day of God's Wrath will "reconciliation for iniquity" happen for the unbelieving Jews that get left behind when the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place in the night or morning before noon, when the asteroids impact Earth (Zeph. 2:1-5).
> > 26: "And after the sixty-two Sabbatical cycles, the anointed will be cut off and cease to be, and the city and the holy [Temple] will be destroyed by the nation of the prince who will come, and it's [the invading nation's] end shall be in a flood [of God's anger]. And until the final war it [Jerusalem] shall remain a desolation." > > The commentaries explain the anointed in this verse is King Agrippus, who was the last king of the Jewish kingdom. The verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, in about 70 CE.
But the commentaries are not Scripture; they are man's writings. What does God say in Scripture? The anointed one (the mashiyach, Messiah) will be "cut off (karath," killed; i.e., crucified). He is Jesus Christ/Y'shua. The temple was destroyed 40 years later, in 70 AD, by the Romans, nation of the False Prophet that will come during the 70th week of Daniel 9:27. After the Day of God's Wrath in the 490th year, and until the final war (Armageddon), Jerusalem will remain a desolation. The 490th week of Dan. 9:27 is about to begin. They are working on strengthening the covenant now. You don't have much time to make it to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> > Obviously, the rebellion failed but if you are looking for candidates for reincarnation, he comes with much better qualifications than the founder of a small heretical sect.
Christianity is not a small sect, or haven't you thought about that lately?
> > One final note: The famous paragraph in Josephus (Antiquities XVIII:3) about Jesus is an obvious later insertion. There are numerous indications of this both from the context (completely OUT of context) and the content (only a Christian would write that Jesus was "Christ" and the fulfillment of Divine prophecies, and, as is clear from throughout Josephus' writings, Josephus was not a Christian).
He mentioned John the Baptist and James the Just, so how could a historian such a Josephus have omitted mentioning Christ? Josephus was a Pharisee priest, yet he had to acknowledge Christ, his works and his resurrection. In book XVIII, Chapter III, paragraph 3, he wrote, "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. HE WAS [the] CHRIST; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, as the divine prophets had foretold these and then thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." Shalom and agape
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