Pro and Con 920

Posted 6-21-02

EU LEADERS CALL FOR EARLY MIDEAST PEACE CONFERENCE
http://www.jvim.com/cgi-bin/update.cgi
6-24-02 - It said an international peace conference - jointly hosted by the EU, the United States, the United Nations and Russia - was needed to discuss security, political and economic issues. It must also 're-affirm the parameters of a political solution and establish a realistic and well-defined timescale.'

'We need a quick initiative,' Javier Solana, the EU's foreign and security policy chief told reporters after the summit…"
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6-22-02 EU leaders call for convening of Mideast peace conference while Israel tightens grip on West Bank cities
http://www.albawaba.com/headlines/TheNews.php3?action=story&sid=217266&lang=e&dir=News

"Further escalation will render the situation uncontrollable," according to the draft EU summit text. "The parties on their own cannot find a solution. There is an urgent need for political action by the whole international community."

Incoming email

Re: Changing times and laws.
For what it's worth, I've always thought that the AC will change times in this way:

Since the Western world dates in AD, or since the birth of Christ, the AC will want to rid the world of anything doing with our Savior. I think he (AC) will change the way we date the year. For instance, he will want to make it start with Year One, since the beginning of his (AC) reign or the formation of a solid One World Government. Just a speculation on my part.

Thanks for all your hard work. I learn so much through your efforts. YSIC.

> From your Pro/Con 918:
KJV says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and THINK TO CHANGE times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." The word translated "think" is the Aramaic "cbar," to bear in mind, i.e., to hope, think.

My reply

I appreciate your kind words. I don't know how much the False Prophet will actually get changed, but it seems that he will stop sacrificing at the temple on the Jew's 7 feasts. Agape

Incoming e-mail with my comments interspersed and marked ***

...I am not certain, but it appears that Satan has always been a covetous creature. He always wants to not only be like God, but to be more than God. Which may help explain the Islam religion. For years, I have believed that the god of Islam, is actually Satan and the Devil himself.

***It is either Satan or his demons. Here are some statements about demons in the Rotherham translation.

***De 32:17: "They sacrificed to mischievous demons to a No-GOD (KJV has 'not to God'), Gods whom they knew not,—New ones lately come in"
Le 17:7: "so shall they no more offer their sacrifices unto demons after whom they are unchastely going away." 2Ch 11:15: "and appointed for himself priests for the high places, and for the demons—and for the calves which he had made."
Ps 106:37: "Yea they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to mischievous demons."
1Co 10:20 "the things which the nations sacrifice, unto demons, and not unto God."
1Ti 4:1 "in later seasons, some will revolt from the faith, giving heed unto seducing spirits, and unto teachings of demons."

Now even more so. Satan even went so far as to require that he be addressed as "God" or Allah, in the arabic tongue.

***Allah was the Moon god. That's why they display the crescent moon symbol.

So, it wouldn't surprise me, if the rider in Rev. 6:2, is actually a Muslim.

***Well, this Pope did kiss the Koran.

After all, they definitely have the "bow" or piece of cloth. The Catholic Church, for all its faults, no longer has as a goal, worldwide conquering of nations,which is definitely a requirement of this first rider as stated in Rev. 6:2.

***I think the Pope wants to be head of the UN so he will have more power among the nations. I also think he wants to be head of the United Religions to have more power among the nations.

However, the majority of 1.2 billion Muslims today, view world domination, thus conquering of nations, as a given, and as a requirement of their faith.

And if Muslims came to substantial power in this world, does anyone really believe they would leave the world's headquarters, i.e., the U.N., in New York? Hardly. New York is an infidel city in an infidel country. Defiled, even if under their rule. Muslims would most likely demand that it be placed, in a Muslim country. And what better place, than in the country of their misunderstood and mistreated brothers, the Iraqis. And what city has the most sacred appeal there? Babylon.

However, I have a few extremely nagging doubts in my head regarding today's Babylon, as the Babylon mentioned in Rev. From a construction point of view, it is physically impossible to build the type of structure and infrastructure in Babylon, that would let it meet the criteria of Rev. 18, within the next 7 years. It's impossible, Marilyn, from a construction and economic point of view. That doesn't even take into account the fact that Babylon has no viable waterways. None. So, unless Saddam Hussein has somehow just plugged 100 trillion dollars into Babylon for economic improvement over the last 10 years, without "letting the cat out of the bag", the literal Babylon of today can't fulfill Rev. 18. So, that means that 1. our timeline is way off, or 2. Babylon in Rev. 18 is a code word, from God's perspective, refering to another city. Marilyn, there is only one city in the world that fulfills all of the criteria of Rev. 18 today, and that is New York City. There are no others. None. Period. Certainly, in the distant future, there could be another great city like NYC, but not now, and not in our lifetimes, or the next 100 years. Now if God wants to intervene with supernatural processes, that's ok with me. But outside of having God suspend what we know as natural laws, using supernatural laws, I don't see how there could ever be a viable Babylon, Iraq, which fulfills Rev. 18. I mean, there's just no longer enough time, Marilyn. Also, I did a crude word study on New York, and found that the word York, is distantly related to the words, Jew and Yah. I am not saying that this has any bearing here, as I am not a scholar, but it did make me sit back and think a bit more.

***I just trust what the Bible says. It is truth, and God is powerful enough to bring all his wishes and prophecies to pass. Jer 50:13 says, "Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues." This has not yet taken place. It is reserved for the Day of God's Wrath, the Day of God that begins the millennial Day of the Lord.

Another thought, in Rev. 18:21, the angel uses the comparison of a millstone being cast into the sea, as describing how that great city Babylon will be destroyed. Jesus also used a millstone to make a point about causing little ones to stumble. He suggested that it would be better for big people if they hung a millstone around their necks and cast it into the midst of the sea (commit suicide), than to cause a little one to stumble. The terrorist attacks in NYC were carried out by suicide terrorists.

***Babylon will be wiped off the map by the asteroid of Rev. 8:10.

Also, in Rev. 18:24, the angel states that "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." The U.N. in New York City has legal representatives of every country in the world.

All this being said, I am not dogmatic that it has to be NYC. It may be that Rev. 11:8 is a major key, and that when it refers to "spiritually" it is refering to more than intangibles and character. This may refer to God's perspective in totality, since words like "like" or "as" are not used. Which may explain why there will be a New Jerusalem, because the old one, in God's eyes at this time, no longer exists.

Of course, I realize that if New York City is the Babylon of Rev. 18, that many, if not all, of our "charts" would have to be redone. Which, is ok with me. I just want to know the truth.

So, finally, I don't have many answers, but I do have a lot of questions. I just keep thinking we are missing a clue which is so obvious that we can't even see it. Maybe we will soon know fully, even as we have been fully known.

***I have not found New York in the Bible. The only verse I know of that applies to the US practically has a carbon copy in 1Ch 17:21.

2Sa 7:23 says, "what one (echad, united) nation in the earth (United States) is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?" God bless you

***Blessing and agape

From 5 Doves site

From: Robert Erives
http://www.fivedoves.com/latterdayletters/post.php?subject=rapture+on+rosh+hashanah
> > rapture on rosh hashanah that includes many reasons to long to go into but the best reason I think it will is luke ch 13;6-9 the parable of the fig tree,which I agree with agee that this rosh hashanah is the end of the 5th year of the parable when CHRIST cuts down the fig tree which is symbolic of starting the tribulation. thanks

***"5th year"?

***What if the 4 years in the parable of the barren fig tree are to be added to 1998, the 480th year in the fig tree parable in Mt. 24:32-34? 1998 + 4 = 2002. Agape

Incoming email

God bless you Marilyn and Ed!

I expect this has been solved before; I may have missed it.

In Revelation 12 verse 6: "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days"

Verse 14: "The women was given two wings of a great eagle so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach".

(we most likely all agree this place is Petra)

Question:
in verse 6: 1,260 days
in verse 14: a time, times and half a time.
how many days is: "a time"
how many days is: "times"
how many days is: "half a time"

do these add up to 1260 days?

Is there someway to unravel how many days the shortened tribulation will be?

It certainly appears that 2007 is the 'end of the tribulation' counting the 40 year generation with respect to 1948 + 19 years = 1967 and 40 years to that is 2007;

Having said that and if this is, indeed, correct.....then we are mid-trib, which takes away the 'pre-trib' theory.

Are the days being shortened AT THIS END? (as opposed to being at the End of the Great Tribulation) is this possible?

Guess I had more than one question :o) tks

My reply

May God bless you and your family too.

A "time" is a year. "Times" is 2 years. Half a "time" is half a year. Add them up and you get 3.5 years. Multiplying 3.5 years by 360 days equals 1260 days. Divide 1260 days by 30 and you get 42 months. Here are some scriptures where these are used.

Rev 11:2,3 speaks of the 1st half of the Tribulation. It says, "the court with is without the temple leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they treade under foot forty and two months. I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Dan 7:25,26 speaks of the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation. It says, "he (the False Prophet) shall speak great words against the most High (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and shall wear out the saints of the most High (Christians), and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3.5 years). But the judgment (Judgment Seat of Christ) shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 12:7 says, "I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (3.5 years); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

Rev 12:6,14 says, "the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3.5 years).... to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years), from the face of the serpent" (Satan, first in the 7th head of the great red dragon, and after the False Prophet is deposed Satan acts on his own as the "eighth" of Rev. 17:11).

Dan 12:11-13 says, from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (Mid-Trib), and the abomination that maketh desolate (the idol) set up by the Falso Prophet), there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (end of the extra 30 days of mourning the dead; 1260 + 30 = 1290). Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou (Daniel) shalt rest, and stand in thy lot (plot of land in Israel) at the end of the days" (1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335, when Israel is given to the 12 tribes by lot).

The shortening comes in the latter 1260 days of the Great Tribulation. The 1st Rapture seems to be delayed by the number of days the Great Tribulation is shortened. The 1260, 1290 and 1335 days seem to be shortened by the same amount.

> > Is there someway to unravel how many days the shortened tribulation will be?

It might be that the only way is to set the beginning and ending dates and subtract the first 1260 days from the total.

> > It certainly appears that 2007 is the 'end of the tribulation' counting the 40 year generation with respect to 1948 + 19 years = 1967 and 40 years to that is 2007; > > Having said that and if this is, indeed, correct.....then we are mid-trib, which takes away the 'pre-trib' theory.

I see no way of getting around a Pre-Trib Rapture. Sept. 13, 2007 is Tishri 1, 5768. Subtract 7 years and we get Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000, when the 2nd Intifada began), when the 7 good years ended and the 7 bad years began. I had thought that the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 would be the length of the shortened Tribulation, but Pentecost, 2001, passed. I'm not sure how many days are lopped off, but we must be getting very close to the Rapture. I hope it will be Av 10, July 19, 2002. We will have to wait and see.

In the news, there is drought in parts of the US, and fires in the west because of it, floods in other areas, tornadoes, earthquakes in Indiana and Iran, and floods in Russia. Do you suppose the Lord is displeased with something? something like terrorism and talk of a Palestinian state in his land? Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather ALL NATIONS (THE UN?), and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and PARTED MY LAND." Agape

From Five Doves site

Re: rapture on rosh hashanah - By Bernie.htm
http://www.fivedoves.com/latterdayletters/showletter.php?id=1951
Email :brainer@comcast.net
6-23-02 - Reply to Robert Erives' post of June 22, rapture on rosh hashanah

Robert writes:
..."luke ch 13;6-9 the parable of the fig tree,which I agree with agee that this rosh hashanah is the end of the 5th year of the parable when CHRIST cuts down the fig tree which is symbolic of starting the tribulation."

Robert, like you, I am looking to Feast of Trumpets as a possibile date for the rapture if we do not go sooner. But I cannot see how the parable in Luke symbolizes the start of the tribulation.

In Luke 13, Jesus is telling the men of Jerusalem, the Jews, that if they did not repent they also will perish like the Galilaens and the eighteen on which the tower fell. He then uses a parable to explain Israel's future if they fail to repent and bear fruit.

In the parable, the fig tree did not produce fruit for three years just like Israel did not produce fruit during the previous 3 years of Our Lord's ministry. Jesus is telling Israel that if they failed to bear fruit in His remaining ministry He, the Lord, will cut the tree down.

As we know, Israel did not bear fruit in the remainder of Our Lord's ministry and The Lord DID cut down the tree, (Israel).

So, Robert, as I understand the parable, the fig tree did not bear fruit and was cut down in 70AD. (The temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered throughout the world--a condition which exists in part even today) I can't quite see how the fig tree can be cut down again in 2002, unless you are suggesting a double fulfillment. Even then how could a person determine the year except by guessing?

BUT, after the tree was cut down in 70AD a stump remained and from it's roots came signs of new life in 1948. The tree WILL finally bear fruit when Israel "looks upon Him whom they have pierced", when they cry out "Blessed is He Who Comes in the Name of The Lord". Israel will be born again in a day. (Isa 66:7-10)

Luke 13:
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

My reply

Re: Re rapture on rosh hashanah--or Av 10

> > > > Robert writes:
. . ."luke ch 13;6-9 the parable of the fig tree,which I agree with agee that this rosh hashanah is the end of the 5th year of the parable when CHRIST cuts down the fig tree which is symbolic of starting the tribulation."

I think that "5" was a typo. There are 4 years in the parable. If they began in 1998, the 480th year of the Modern Parallels, the 4th year is 2002. In the 1st, 2nd and 3rd years, Christ comes seeking fruit on the fig tree (Israel, as a nation) and finds none. The 3rd year would be 2001, the 483rd year in the Modern Parallels, the 1st of the 7 bad years. Not only has the Intifada brought terror to Israel, the twin towers fell in New York. They remind us of Isa 30:25. It says, "there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the TOWERS FALL. This takes place on the Day of God's Wrath on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

Here is the way I figure. In the parable of the fig tree in Mt. 24:32-34, we were to know that the Rapture is near when Israel grew leaves while she was still "tender, apalos," young (i.e., not over 19, as at the Exodus). She grew leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights) in the Six-Day War of 1967. Israel was 19 years old in 1967. Summer was nigh. The war began June 5, summer began June 21. At that time, there was to be one generation that would see all the things listed in Mt. 24:15-31 come to pass.

A generation is 40 years. In 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees that all those things would come upon "this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did--in 70 AD. Applying this in the parable of the fig tree, we find out that "this generation" born in 1967 will end 40 years later, in 2007.

The parable of the fig tree in Luke 21:29-32 indicates that we have figured right in Mt. 24:32-34. It says, "Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (other nations); When they now shoot forth (push at each other, i.e., in war), ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand (the war started June 5, summer June 21). So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God (where we will go at the Rapture) is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" (1967 + 40 = 2007).

When Joseph was in Egypt, there were 7 good years followed by 7 bad years. I Cor. 10:11 tells that "all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (aionos, ages) are come."

In Dan. 9:27, we find out that there is to be a strengthening of a 7-year covenant at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel that we call the Tribulation.

I think the signing of the Oslo Accords Sept. 13, 1993 was the covenant that will be strengthened as the Tribulation begins.

Adding 7 bad years and 7 good years to Sept. 13, 1993 brings us to Sept. 13, 2007. The Oslo Accords were ratified 3 days later in Israel, on Tishri 1, 5754. Adding the 7 good and 7 bad years brings us to Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007, the Feast of Trumpets.

The 7 good years on our calendar would be (1) 1994, (2) 1995, (3) 1996, (4) 1997 (5) 1998, (6) 1999 and (7) 2000.

The 2nd Intifada introduced the 1st bad year. On the Jewish Calendar, the Intifada began just two days before Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000). Arafat used Ariel Sharon's visit to the temple mount as an excuse to start the Intifada a little early.

The 7 bad years on our calendar would be (1) 2001, (2) 2002, (3) 2003 (4) 2004, (5) 2005, (6) 2006 and (7) 2007, easy to remember for the last number in each shows which bad year it is.

The Modern Parallels are explained on my web site, but here is a short version. God made sure that certain blocks of time were listed in Scripture--400, 430, 450, 480, 483, and 490. Add each to 5278 (our 1517), when Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses to the church door (a symbol of a Rapture in Rev. 3:8). Here is the new series.

5678 (1917/1918) - Jerusalem was freed without a shot
5708 (1947/48) - Israel became a nation
5728 (1967/68) - Israel grew leaves in the Six-Day War, the beginning of the last 40 years of this age
5758 (1997/98) - end of 6000 years of man's test knowing both good and evil
5761 (2000/01) - beginning of 7 bad years
5768 (2007/08) - End of the last 40 years of this Age, Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1 - and after 7 months Second Advent, Nisan 1, 5768.

If the 4 years of the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 started when the 6000 years were up, these years would be 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002 on our calendar. They would be 5759, 5760, 5761 and 5762 on the Jewish calendar. Tishri 1, 5762 started Sept. 18, 2001 and will run to Tishri 1, 5763 (Sept. 7, 2002, the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh haShannah).

> > Robert, like you, I am looking to Feast of Trumpets as a possibile date for the rapture if we do not go sooner

I agree with both of you. I am hoping for the Pre-Trib Rapture on Av 10 (July 19, 2002), but if not then, by the Feast of Trumpets. At the end of the 40 years of testing and probation, I expect the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints (Rev. 7:14) on Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). It seems possible that both Raptures could take place on Tishri 1.

If the 2nd Rapture is at the end of the 40 years of testing and probation for Israel, the 1st Rapture might be at the end of the 4 years of testing for the Bride of Christ. If so, Jesus came in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year (2001) and found no fruit on the fig tree (Israel). The fig tree is to be dug around and dunged one more year (2002), and we have seen this come true. If not showing fruit this year, the ax will begin to chop away at her.

Not only do the 4 years in the parable of the barren fig tree point to 2002, Jacob went to Joseph in the 2nd bad year (Gen. 47:18), which for us would be 2002.

Gen 45:6,7 says, "For these TWO YEARS (i,e., 2001, 2002) hath the famine been in the land (i.e., bad years): and yet there are FIVE YEARS (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007), in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a GREAT (gadowl, exceedingly great) DELIVERANCE" (pleytah, ESCAPE, i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture.

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Both former temples in Israel went up in smoke on Av 10.

Jer 52:12.13 says, "Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month (Av 10), which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem, And burned the house of the LORD." The temple that burned in 70 AD was burned on the same day as Solomon's temple, Av 10.

As the 3rd temple, maybe we will ascend in clouds on Av 10 (July 19, 2002) in the 2nd bad year. It would be in the 4th year of the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9.

> > So, Robert, as I understand the parable, the fig tree did not bear fruit and was cut down in 70AD. (The temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered throughout the world--a condition which exists in part even today) I can't quite see how the fig tree can be cut down again in 2002, unless you are suggesting a double fulfillment. Even then how could a person determine the year except by guessing?

As I understand the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9, it takes place after Israel is back in the land (i.e., after 1948).

The barren fig tree of 30 AD was cursed in Mt. 21:18-20 on Monday after Jesus was refused as king on Palm Sunday. It withered away overnight. It did not have a 4th year final chance given it. Mt. 21:19,20 says, "when he (Jesus) saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever (aion, the age). And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!" Nationally, Israel will not show fruit until the actual end of this present age. Israel will be born in a day on the 1st day of the Millennial Day of the Lord (Isa. 66:8). As soon as she travails, she will bring forth her children.

Since that literal fig tree stood for Israel, already growing in the land in 30 AD, there would be no reason to have the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 apply to the first century. To me, it seems to apply to the 4 years following the 6000th year of man's testing, which was the 480th year of the Modern Parallels. The 4 years would be (1) 1999, (2) 2000, (3) 2001 and (4) 2002.

According to this parable, Christ came in each of the first 3 years to see if there was any fruit on his fig tree nation, Israel. Not finding any, Israel has been dug about and dunged this year. If this does not cause her to put forth fruit, she will start to be cut down. The way the peace covenant stands now, it looks like the land will be parted, with some of it given to the Palestinians.

Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather all nations (UN army?), and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and PARTED MY LAND." Agape

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