Pro and Con 924

Posted 7-4-02

From 5 Doves site

Peg Fenn
"The Wailing Wall"
July 3rd, 2002
The water coming from the Wailing Wall has truly excited me. Last year while on Aish.com I found an article pertaining to the Western Wall titled "About the Wall". Included in this article was another article entitled "The Mystical Secret of the Wall". This article quoted the Song of Solomon 2:8-9 which says 8 "The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. 9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart; he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice."KJV This last verse aroused my curiousity so I looked to see if there happened to be a face. I was astounded!! I wrote to Marilyn Agee about it and she pictured it in her Pro"s and Con"s # 757 and again in # 760.I wasn"t sure of what to think until now. The Jews believe this water is prophetic and is a sign of deliverance. I believe Jesus is "shewing Himself" to His people and the veil has not been lifted as yet for them to see Him.. Blessing to all... the time of our deliverance is close! ....Peg

My reply

I just looked at the wailing wall at:
http://www.aish.com/wallcam/
I saw it at 5:45 AM, Jerusalem time. The face will be clearer after the shadows are more sharply defined, but I could see it. I read somewhere that the water was coming from near the division of the women's and the men's area in front of the wall. There is a division near the chin of the face. Keep watching. Agape
---
Here is where I saw where the water was coming from.

Is the Wall wailing? By ETGAR LEFKOVITS
http://www.fivedoves.com/latterdayletters/showletter.php?id=2641
7-3-02 In a highly unnatural phenomenon, water has begun dripping from the midst of a stone in Jerusalem's Western Wall.

The water leak, which was first noticed Saturday by worshippers at the Wall, continued yesterday for the fourth straight day, Shmuel Rabinovitch, the rabbi of the Western Wall, said yesterday....

The drops of water are coming from a mid-level stone on the right edge of the men's side, near the division with the women's side....

The drip has also proved to be of immense interest to Jewish mystics, who see it as a sign of upcoming redemption....

Rabinovitch said: "Maybe the Wall is indeed crying because of the current situation in the country."

Incoming email

The news about the water leaking from the Western Wall is so exciting. The area where it is leaking is right in the area where the face happens to be. I have sent you the article as I know you will be interested. I sent a post to 5 Doves and mentioned your name and the Pros & Con numbers picturing the face (757 and 760)....The pictures were so good. and I think this will be a message of hope to many in these last days. May the Lord continue to bless you and Ed. Thank you for your many responses to my inquiries. Looking ahead to seeing you soon. Agape, ysic

http://pub28.bravenet.com/forum/fetch.php?id=9947002&usernum=2340524032

My reply

I finally found a good picture of the astronomical symbol for Saturn on Your Sky--an h for heaven, plus the cross. I think Saturn is where Christ's throne is located. This sign should have alerted me long before I finally accepted that Saturn is Heaven when I looked up the meaning of "sapphire" (Eze. 1:26). It means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. I saw "Sani" on "Your Sky" too.

According to Josephus, the candlestick represented the Sun and planets. In Wars. 5. 5. 5, he said, "the candlestick... the seven lamps signified the seven planets; for so many there were springing out of the candlestick. Now, the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year."

In Ant. III. VI. 4,7, he said that the Holy of Holies was, "as it were, a Heaven peculiar to God; but the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live....near the southern wall, was set a candlestick... spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, including the sun among them....these branches carried seven lamps, one by one, in imitation of the number of the planets." With the western light that was to always be kept burning representing the Sun, Saturn would be the 7th lamp. Seven is God's number of completeness and perfection.

If you hear exactly where in the face the water is coming from, or what is causing it, please let me know. Agape

Incoming email

Re: You may be more right than you know
I now firmly believe that Christ Was crucified on Wed/Thur, April 3, 30 AD !

Heres why:
1. Wednesday Crucifixion on 14 Nisan happened only in 30 AD. In other years such as 31, 32, 33 through 36, 14 Nisan fell on other days such as Mon/Tues, Mon/Tues, Fri/Sat, Mon/Tues...respectively.

2. In John 10:22 it says "And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter." The word "winter is interesting because this feast is the 8 day feast starting in 25 Kislev (9th month) and ending 2 Tevet (10th month). Winter is a physical property of the earth where the winter solstice begins on the shortest day of the year on December 21/22. As it turns out this feast only occurs in the "winter" on 29 AD, where it runs from Dec 17 to 24. This event occurred 4 months before the crucifixion on April 3, 30 AD.

3. I have looked carefully over chronology works by many of the leading chronologists, including Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones. Dr. Jones, and James Ussher seem to agree that 30 AD is correct as well. By the way, I have all the charts by Dr. Jones of OT chronology from creation to the crucifixion.

4. 30 AD is important because it is the jumping off point (I believe) for the 2-day prophecy listed in Hosea 6. If you look carefully it can be seen to have been partially fulfilled by the Sept 11, 2001 event...let me explain. If you use the April 3, 30 AD crucifixion date as the starting point for calculations, this is what you would have:

April 3, 30 AD (14 Nisan - Wed - 3rd hour, Mark 15:25) Crucifixion
April 6, 30 AD (17 Nisan - Sat) Resurrection
May 16, 30 AD (27 Lyyar - Thur) 40 days later, Ascension
May 26, 30 AD (8 Sivan - Sun - 3rd hour, Acts 2:15) Pentecost
Sept 11, 2001 - After 2-days (2000 years of 360 days each)

From May 26, 30 AD, using a 360 day year, the 2-day time of 1971 years, 108 days you end up at Sept 11, 2001 at 3:00pm Israel time, which is 8:00am New York time, exactly when the first plane took off.

It was this event that has given Israel new vigor to go after their attackers in the same way we are pursuing ours. (Hosea 6:2 - After two days he will revive us...)

The second part of this 2 day prophecy is...in the third day he will raise us up. Now the question is when is the third day. An intriguing possibility is 360 days later which lands on 1 Tishri - Sept 7, 2002. This may be on, or near the start of the Tribulation, or even the rapture.

I find it interesting that the Church was established on Pentecost at 3:00pm in the afternoon, and at 3:00pm Sept 11, 2001 the first part of Hosea 6 was apparently fulfilled. Then the removal of the church could occur on Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets) possibly at the same time of 3:00pm. (the 3:00 part is admittedly a stretch for Sept 7, 2002).

My final thought is this, whether you belive that April 3, 30 ad is correct or not, doesn't change the fact that there is EXACTLY 2000 years (360 day year) from May 26, 30 ad until Sept 11, 2001.

In future email I may elaborate on some interesting information about the "generation" starting point, the dedication date of the next temple, and the transposition of time that may take place during the tribulation. take care

My reply

I appreciate your input. Maybe if we put our heads together, we can both learn something.

> > I now firmly believe that Christ Was crucified on Wed/Thur, April 3, 30 AD

I still think Thursday, Nisan 13, was April 6 in 30 AD, the date of the Crucifixion. If we are going to figure from the date of the Crucifixion, we should be as sure as possible that our foundation is right. Otherwise, it will skew all the dates.

Since I determined that Thursday, April 6, 30 AD, was the Crucifixion so many years ago, as a double check, I went to http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/SpringPhenom.html and copied a section of their chart below. They list Thursday, April 6, 30 AD, as the date of the Full Moon. Then April 6, 30 AD was on Thursday, and the 3rd on Monday.

U.S. Naval Observatory Astronomical Applications Department Spring Phenomena, 25 BCE to 38 CE

26 April 20 Noon Sat
27 April 9 4 p.m. Wed
28 March 29 3 a.m. Mon
29 April 17 3 a.m. Sun
30 April 6 8 p.m. Thu
31 March 27 11 a.m. Tue
32 April 14 9 a.m. Mon.
33 April 3 3 p.m. Fri.

We can see how very appropriate that date was. Trust God to do things right. The Full Moon was on our night of April 6, marking that important date. At 6 PM, the Jewish Passover, Nisan 14, began.

First, Jesus shed his blood as the Passover lambs were being killed at the temple. Second, Jesus was wrapped with spices and put in the oven-like tomb as our Passover Lamb when the Jews were putting their Passover lambs in their ovens to roast. Lev.7:9 mentions "all the meat offering that is baken in the oven." Also, corresponding to the spices Jesus was wrapped in, all their meat offerings were to be salted. Lev 2:13 says, "every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt."

I also went to
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm
and copied their chart. Friday, April 7, 30 AD was Nisan 14, Passover. Therefore, Thursday, April 6, 30 AD was Nisan 13, Preparation of the Passover. I still think that was the day of the Crucifixion.

Mat 27:62 says, "Now the NEXT DAY (Friday, Nisan 14, April 7, 30 AD, Passover), THAT FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION (Thursday, Nisan 13, April 6, the preparation of the Passover), the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again." John 19:14 says, "And IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" John 19:42 says, "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' PREPARATION DAY; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand."

Year Vernal Equinox Astronomical New Moon
Conjunction
First evening of visible crescent Date of the first of Nisan 14th day of Nisan (Passover)
    (First after vernal Equinox) (Julian calendar. Midnight to midnight) (Beginning at sundown the evening before...) (Beginning at sundown the evening before...)
26 A.D.  Fri.    Mar. 22, 0* Sat.   Apr.    6,  7 a.m.  Sun.    Apr.   7 Mon.   Apr.  8 Sun.   Apr.  21
27 A.D. Sun.  Mar. 23, 6 a.m. Wed. Mar. 26,  7 p.m.** Fri. Mar. 28 Sat.    Mar. 29 Fri. Apr. 11
28 A.D. Mon.  Mar. 22, noon Tues. Apr. 13,   2 p.m. Wed.   Apr.  14 Thurs. Apr.15 Wed.   Apr. 28 
29 A.D. Tues. Mar. 22,  6 p.m. Sat.   Apr.   2,   7 p.m.** Mon.    Apr.    4 Tues.  Apr.   5 Mon.    Apr. 18
30 A.D. Wed. Mar. 22,  0* Wed. Mar. 22,  8 p.m.** Fri. Mar.  24 Sat.    Mar. 25 Fri. Apr.   7
31 A.D. Fri.    Mar. 23,  5 a.m. Tues. Apr.  10,  2 p.m. Wed.   Apr.   11 Thurs. Apr.12 Wed.   Apr.  25
32 A.D. Sat.   Mar. 22, 11 a.m. Sat.  Mar.  29, 10 p.m.** Mon. Mar.     31 Tues.  Apr. 1 Mon.    Apr.  14
33 A.D. Sun.  Mar. 22,  5 p.m. Fri.   Apr.  17,   9 p.m.** Sun.  Apr.      19 Mon.   Apr. 20 Sun.     May    3
34 A.D. Mon. Mar. 22,11 p.m. Wed. Apr.   7,   2 p.m. Thurs. Apr.     8 Fri.     Apr.   9 Thurs. Apr.  22

> > 2. In John 10:22 it says "And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter." The word "winter is interesting because this feast is the 8 day feast starting in 25 Kislev (9th month) and ending 2 Tevet (10th month). Winter is a physical property of the earth where the winter solstice begins on the shortest day of the year on December 21/22. As it turns out this feast only occurs in the "winter" on 29 AD, where it runs from Dec 17 to 24. This event occurred 4 months before the crucifixion on April 3, 30 AD.

How interesting. I hadn't thought of connecting the feast of dedication and winter to the Crucifixion. Thanks. Two heads are better than one.

> > May 26, 30 AD (8 Sivan - Sun - 3rd hour, Acts 2:15) Pentecost

I think Pentecost was on May 29, Sivan 7 in 30 AD.

> > (Hosea 6:2 - After two days he will revive us...) > > The second part of this 2 day prophecy is...in the third day he will raise us up. Now the question is when is the third day. An intriguing possibility is 360 days later which lands on 1 Tishri - Sept 7, 2002. This may be on, or near the start of the Tribulation, or even the rapture.

Maybe Hosea 6:1-3 has clues to when the Rapture could be, but let's also keep in mind that it might only pertain to the First and Second Advents of Christ. The Lord came as the former rain (Tishri 1) and later as the latter rain (Nisan 1). Look at the last 2 verses of chapter 5. Christ is talking. He says, "I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a YOUNG LION to the house of Judah (that reminds me that the face of a young lion was seen in the Lunar eclipse over Jerusalem): I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him. I will go and return to my place (Heaven, 40 days after Resurrection Day), till they (Israel) acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction (Day of God's Wrath) they will seek me early." The nation will be saved in a day, Isa. 66:8.

As Hos. 6:1-3 starts, Israel in talking: "Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn (Solomon's temple was burned and most of the people were taken to Babylon), and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us (Israel): in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight (fulfilled in 1948, after the 3rd millennium since the Babylonian Captivity started). Then (after 1948) shall we know, if we follow on (the Sign of the End of the Age was the Six-Day War of 1967) to know THE LORD: HIS GOING FORTH is prepared as the morning (He comes as the "Sun of righteousness...with healing in his wings," Mal. 4:2); and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."

Eze. 29:17,21 shows that he will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1. Verse 17 sets the date as Nisan 1. It says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." Then verse 21 says, "In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Jesus Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

I think he came as the former rain on Tishri 1 in BC 5. However, the natural sequence in this verse is looking forward, 1998 (Israel, the fig tree, lives), 1967 (Israel grows leaves), 2008 (the Lord comes as the latter rain unto the Earth). What happened to the former rain in that sequence? The thing that fits into this orderly progression is the Rapture. This raises the question, will he come as the former rain to catch up his Bride?

If the Rapture has to fit into this series, then it looks like Christ could come on Tishri 1, 5763 (Sept. 7, 2002) to catch up his Gentile Bride on the same Jewish date (Tishri 1) that he will pick up his Israelite Bride (the 144,000 of Rev. 7:1f; 14,4,5), probably Sept. 13, 2007 (Tishri 1, 5768).

Jacob (the supplanter) didn't go to live near Joseph (increase,addition) until the 2nd year of famine. Gen. 45:6 says, "For these TWO YEARS hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are FIVE YEARS, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest." Do these five years prefigure Tishri 1, 5763 to Tishri 1, 5768? That would be exactly 5 years.

There were 7 good years and 7 bad years in Joseph's day. They fit well here at the end of this age. The Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993, and ratified on the 3rd day, Tishri 1, 5754. Adding 7 good and 7 bad years brings us to Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007.

With that in mind, it seems likely that each of these bad years would start on Tishri 1. Maybe the Rapture will be on Tishri 1 too, Sept. 7, 2002. At the Pre-Trib Rapture, the first trump of God will sound (I Thess. 4:16). At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the last trump of God will sound (I Cor. 15:51,52). What better day than the Feast of Trumpets?

Now, why did I think it would not be on Trumpets? Song of Sol. 2:10-14 says that winter is past and the rain is over and gone." That passage sounds like spring. Since Tishri 1 is the beginning of the rainy season, I shied away from Trumpets.

What I didn't take into consideration was that these are 7 years of drought, famine, no rain. Rev. 11:6 says, "These (two witnesses, Moses and Elijah) have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy." If Jesus brings them as he picks us up on Tishri 1, it probably won't rain that day.

In Song of Sol. 2:10-14, there are flowers. Previously, I thought of wild flowers, but I think Israel exports flowers, so they would be growing them by irrigating at least until summer ends. The turtledoves are still there until October. There are grapes, because the vintage is in Elul and Tishri. Maybe Tishri fits after all. Give me your thoughts for or against Tishri 1.

> > I find it interesting that the Church was established on Pentecost at 3:00pm in the afternoon, and at 3:00pm

It was 9 AM, the "third hour of the day' (Acts 2:15). There were 12 hours of night (6 PM to 6 AM), then 12 hours of daylight (6 AM to 6 PM).

> > at 3:00pm Sept 11, 2001 the first part of Hosea 6 was apparently fulfilled. Then the removal of the church could occur on Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets) possibly at the same time of 3:00pm. (the 3:00 part is admittedly a stretch for Sept 7, 2002).

It is possible that the Rapture could be 9 AM Sept. 7, 2002. Mar 13:35 says, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even (6 PM), or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing (3 AM), or in the morning" (6 AM to noon). Agape ---

My thoughts

Sept. 7, 2002 is Saturday, the Sabbath, when the 12 loaves of bread were taken up and then replaced with fresh shewbread (lit., face bread) in the Tabernacle. The loaves that were taken up were eaten by the priests. Lev. 24:8 says, "Every sabbath he shall set it (the bread) in order before the LORD continually, being taken before the LORD continually, BEING TAKEN FROM THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BY AN EVERLASTING COVENANT." Could this be a hint that the Rapture would take place on the Sabbath?

Josephus said the shewbread represented the zodiac, which starts with Virgo (tribe of Zebulon, meaning dwelling; habitation, i.e., child born of a virgin) and ends with Leo (Lion of the Tribe of Judah, meaning praise of the Lord), having to do with Christ's two Advents. Each sign of the Zodiac is assigned to one of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Saturn will be in Taurus for the rest of 2002. Taurus was Joseph's sign, and Jacob/Israel went to Joseph in the 2nd bad year, "and yet there are five years" of famine (Gen. 45:6). On May 18, Sivan 7, Pentecost, we had Venus, Mars, Saturn, Neptune and the Sun in Taurus. That got our attention. Will we go to Saturn while it is in Taurus as Jacob went to Joseph in the 2nd bad year?

Incoming email

Re: Rapture
Hello and God bless. Keeping people ready and on their feet is exactly what you seem to accomplish when you set a date. And honestly every date seems to be studied out and makes a lot of sense. So even if the rapture doesn't occur on this next date, at least you keep us watching!!!! Take Care! Sister in Christ

My reply

I'm watching, waiting and hoping. I intend to be an overcomer, no matter what. If I can figure the time out--fine. If I can't figure it out--fine. I'm doing my best to understand as much of the Bible as possible. The most important thing is for all Christians to confess all known sins committed after they accepted Christ, so the Lord can cleanse them of all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

For me, I go by what Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all (pas, the whole) things." I also keep in mind Luke 8:17 (LITV) too. In it, Jesus said, "For nothing is hidden which will not be revealed, nor secret which will not be known and come to be revealed." No wonder Jesus told us to watch.

I realize that the Bible is here a little and there a little so only the wise can understand with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

But Dan. 12:8-10 says, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and TRIED; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

We are living in the last days of this age. It looks like the virgins are TRIED to separate the wise from the foolish. If the "wise" that "shall understand" are the wise virgins, they should be able to understand before the Rapture takes them to Heaven. How could I not watch? Who knows what is just around the corner? Agape
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Article By Joseph Farah, WorldNetDaily
http://www.fivedoves.com/latterdayletters/showletter.php?id=2533
...In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

Incoming email

Jim Bramlett's "Thoughts on this 4th of July"
...Patrick Henry, American revolutionary leader said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."...

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