Pro and Con 926

Posted 7-10-02


The Western Wall of the Judaic temple, which was demolished in the first century A.D. is on the south-western slope of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. There are more and more pilgrims coming to the Wall. A spokesperson for the department of historical monuments protection advised that water was leaking through the Wall for 96 hours running. People noticed last Saturday during a traditional prayer that water was trickling between male and female parts of the Wall, from the heart of one of its stones. Everybody started talking about a miracle at once....

The Wailing Wall is a holy object for all Jews. It is the retaining part of the Western Wall – the last vestige of the Second Jerusalem Temple in the center of Israel. The first temple was built by King Solomon in 960 B.C. The construction of the Second Temple was completed in 515 B.C. The Second Jerusalem Temple was destroyed during the Judaic war in the year 70 A.D. The length of the Wailing Wall is 156 meters, it is built of huge massive stones. Water on the Wailing Wall is the sign of salvation before the coming of Messiah. (emphasis mine)

My reply to the gal that sent me this great picture.

Thanks a million. I am so delighted to see this particular picture of the Wailing Wall.

Look at it closely. The male face is near the center between the right side of the picture and the left side of the wall. Now look closely to the right of the male face. There is a female face looking out from a bit behind the male face. His hair hides a portion of her face. I think they represent the Bridegroom (Christ) and his Bride.

Search the site. Do you see both faces in other photos? I haven't seen the female face except in this one photo. Why do I see it now? and not in the many other times I have looked at the photo. I think it is because the time that the Bridegroom will come for the Bride of Christ is near. To see the face best on the photo, we need to find the right hour to view it. The wall itself should still be in shadow, but the floor should already be sunlit. The lighting in the picture in the file "After 3000 Years" is just right.

Besides the male and female faces, we have the sign of the weeping stone nearby. It is not in the face, but to the left of it. It called attention to the wall so we would see the Bride's face. Water from a rock reminds us that Christ is our rock. Since the Lord is our rock, and Moses was told to strike the rock once in the wilderness. At that time, lots of water gushed forth from the rock. Striking the rock once pictured the Crucifixion. The water gushing forth from the rock pictured the Spirit of Christ baptizing believers when they accept him as their own personal Saviour.

Shalom and agape. See you here, there, or in the air.
The Western Wall is Weeping
The Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement will march to the Temple Mount on Tisha B'Av — 18th July , 2002 — and call for the immediate rebuilding of the Temple

Two weeks before Tisha B'Av (9 Av), the day commemorating the destruction of both Temples, water has started to come out of the Western Wall. One of the stones, 15 metres [50 feet] up the wall, has suddenly become wet.

This was an exciting surprise for the rabbi of the Western Wall and people who have seen it. This was special as it came one week after the Fast of Tamuz (17 Tamuz) — commemorating when the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem — and two weeks before Tisha B'Av — commemorating when they occupied the Temple Mount and destroyed the Temple....

The only explanations are:
A very old Jewish tradition holds that, close to Tisha B'Av, the Western Wall weeps and mourns the destruction of the Temple.

A stronger, godly, prophetic explanation is that the tears which are coming from the Western Wall are a sign of the close redemption of the people and land of Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple and the coming of Mashiach ben David....

However, what is so unique and exciting this time, is that it is coming two weeks before Tisha B'Av — the day that G-d said would change from a day of mourning and fasting to a day of rejoicing. The prophetic tradition is that the Temples were destroyed on Tisha B'Av and will be rebuilt on Tisha B'Av. ...(Zechariah 8:19)

Incoming email

Re: Yahoo! News - Photo
Found this on Rapture Ready MB. First picture I have seen of the seepage. Appears to be coming right from the stone and not between them. will keep watching. Agape, ysic

My reply

Thanks much. This is the WHITE STONE, easily picked out in both the smaller view of the wall cam at right now and in their larger view. The white stone in the wall is the one that is dripping water, a symbol of the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9). Christ is also our rock. 1Co 10:4 says that the Israelites in the wilderness "did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST."

This weeping rock seems to be A SIGN to the churches of the approaching Rapture. It was seen on June 29, 2002, three weeks before Av 10 (July 19). This sign reminds me of several scriptures. Rev 2:17 says, "HE THAT HATH AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH UNTO THE CHURCHES; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a WHITE STONE, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

This weeping white rock is high overhead. Why? Psa 61:2-4 sounds like the Rapture--the trip from Earth to Heaven, God's dwelling place. It says, "From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: LEAD ME TO THE ROCK THAT IS HIGHER THAN I (i.e., to Christ, the Rock, in Heaven, the rock). For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy. I WILL ABIDE IN THY TABERNACLE FOR EVER."

Exo 17:6 tells us what the Lord said to Moses. "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt SMITE THE ROCK (representing Jesus' death), AND THERE SHALL COME WATER (the Spirit of Christ) OUT OF IT, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel." Psa 78:16 says, "He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers."

Psa 105:41-43 may refer both to the Crucifixion and the Rapture. It says, "He opened the rock (Jesus Christ), and the waters (Spirit of Christ) gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river. For he remembered HIS HOLY PROMISE, and Abraham his servant. And HE BROUGHT FORTH (yatsa, caused to depart, escape) HIS PEOPLE WITH JOY, AND HIS CHOSEN WITH GLADNESS."

Song of Sol. 2:13,14 says, "The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. ARISE, MY LOVE, MY FAIR ONE, AND COME AWAY. O my dove (that can fly), that art IN THE CLEFTS OF THE ROCK (in Christ), in the secret places of the stairs (lit., the secret of the stairs; like Jacob's ladder that reached from Earth to Heaven), let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely." Agape


"Calendar helps"
Posted 7-6-02

A little reference help for calculating Jewish feast dates, time periods, etc.

On the WEB:
Jewish Calendar Generate a calendar of Jewish holidays for any year 0001-9999

Jewish Date Converter Convert between Hebrew and Gregorian dates.

Date Converter Convert a gregorian date into julian, Hebrew, Islamic, etc., all in one inquiry

TimeZoneCoverter Compare time in different time zones.

Freeware: What date?A freeware date calculator. Enter a date and an interval to find any date in the future or past. Also calculates time between two dates. Excellent program. (Must be downloaded and used on your computer.)
Reuters - UNITED NATIONS - The Quartet of Middle East peacemakers - Washington, Moscow, the European Union and the United Nations - is tentatively due to next meet on July 15-16 in New York, UN and diplomatic sources said on Friday. Representatives of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan were expected to join the group during the second day of talks to be held at UN headquarters

From 5 Doves site

"Re: Stones Cry Out "
By Nadav Shragai
...The report on the damp spot has caused excitement among a number of religious circles because tradition has it that prior to Tisha B'Av, the day of the destruction of the two temples, the Wall weeps....

"Many hundreds of people are coming to the Wall to look at a phenomenon for which I have no explanation," the rabbi said. "I am not a mystic, but if no logical reason for this is found, I will also start to believe that perhaps it is a sign of the approaching redemption, in accordance with one of the most ancient traditions. Never in all my years as rabbi of the Wall have I witnessed such interest on the part of the public around this place."
Picture at:

Incoming email

...there's only little time left until Jesus comes. I love Him so much, but i think that Jesus has plenty of reasons of to leave me here. My thoughts have become filled with sin and i've become blind to see God's works. Satan has been VERY ugly with me lately, when i reject Jesus completely.

I have hate for this world very much. I'm feeling very lonely and feel that i can't do anything and i can't hold on to Jesus.

If you can, please pray for me.

My reply

...I assume from a quick look at some of your postings that you are already a Christian. However, let's leave no stone unturned. We need to be absolutely certain, beyond the slightest flicker of doubt.

I prayed for you. Know that if you have truly accepted Christ as your own personal Saviour, he won't let you slip out of his fingers. We are his sheep, and he is the good shepherd. In John 10:27-30, Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; AND NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE." II Cor. 5:19 says, "GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF."

If there is the slightest doubt that you are securely in his hand, just pray and tell the Lord you accept him. Make sure. That's the first step. If a person has accomplished this step, he has eternal life and will eventually get to Heaven.

At the moment of Salvation, all our previous sins are washed away. They don't exist any more. II Peter 1:9 speaks of one that is "blind, and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS."

The second step has to do with wearing a spiritual white wedding garment so we are ready when Jesus comes for his white sheep, the Bride of Christ. This wise-virgin group has enough oil of the Holy Spirit to keep their lamps burning brightly.

I think the blackish sheep will be left on Earth at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are the foolish virgins that need to wash "their robes" and make them "white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). Their once white robes have become "spotted by the flesh" (Jude 1:23).

How do we bring all our sins committed since we accepted Christ under His blood? We use I John 1:9. This precious promise says, "If we confess our sins (known ones), HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." Thus all our sins since we accepted Christ are wiped off the books, both known and unknown sins. At this point, we are again His white sheep. The black dirt is all washed away.

2Peter 1:2-11 is important. We need the peace that comes with being sure that we will be caught up in the 1st Rapture. Peter said, "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES: THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE (Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Rom. 8:9), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH VIRTUE; and to virtue KNOWLEDGE; And to knowledge TEMPERANCE; and to temperance PATIENCE; and to patience GODLINESS; And to godliness BROTHERLY KINDNESS; and to brotherly kindness CHARITY (AGAPE, LOVE). For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodicean), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance (THE RAPTURE) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Eph 5:27 says, "that He might present the Church to Himself a glorious bride, without spot or wrinkle or any other defect, but to be holy and unblemished." 1Pe 1:16 says, "Because it stands written, "YOU ARE TO BE HOLY, BECAUSE I AM HOLY." " Agape

From 5 Doves site

Renee' C. "Re: to RJ on the 7 year trib " Posted 7-5-02

(Renee' - This was posted at Five Doves before, and I copied it. It needs to be posted again, imho. God bless...)
K.S. Wuest on 2Thess 2:3

The Rapture Precisely When? Vol. 114 #453 Jan 1957

Here Mr.. Wuest discusses 2 Thess 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia." He asserts that it should be translated as "departure" with reference to the rapture of the church.

"The words ‘falling away’ are the AV (Authorized Version) rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi in its intransitive sense means to "stand", the prefixed preposition means "off, away from", and the compound verb, "to stand off from."

The word does NOT mean "to fall". The Greeks had a word for that, "piptw". Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the AV "to depart" in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away", in Acts 5:37 "drew away", and in Acts 5:38 "refrain". Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure".

The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart", also, that where it is translated "fall away", the context adds the idea of falling away to the verb, which action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer (Wuest) is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean a departure in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the AV, divorcement, which word also signifies a departure, here form antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the words means "a rebel". But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church.

The fact that our word, apostasy, means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith", and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith", indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the AV did not translate the word, but offered THEIR INTERPRETATION of it instead. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article "before" apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark the object as definitely conceived, for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article. This departure, whatever it is, is a PARTICULAR ONE, one differentiated from all others.

Another function of the article is to denote previous reference. Here the article points out an object, the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context. Paul in 2 Thess 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto Him", NOT as the second advent, but as the Rapture. The Greek word rendered ‘AND’ can also be translated ‘EVEN’, and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, EVEN our gathering together unto Him.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to the gathering together unto Him as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thess 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, NOT grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the Rapture of 2 Thess 2:2, NOT ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thess 2: 10-12. The article is ALL-IMPORTANT HERE, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thess 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the Rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article.

Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pretribulation Rapture rather than a preseventtieth week Rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is NOT explaining the particular place of the Rapture in the prophetic program of God." (emphasis mine)

Incoming email

Re: Is the Weeping Wall a deception?
I was reading on Weekend Discussion Group (The Weeping Wall - Pictures!)that the water dripping is in the wrong location. Here's a quote, ..."Here's the scripture and for now it's coming from the wrong side (not to mention the lack of a temple).

Eze 47:1 Then he brought me back to the entrance of the temple; there, water was flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). And the water was flowing down from under the right side of the house, from south of the altar. 47:2 Then he brought me by way of the north gate, and led me around the outside of the outer gate that faces toward the east; and the water was coming out from the south side. New English Translation : NET Bible., electronic edition. (Dallas, TX: Biblical Studies Press, 199....

I have read that the Jews consider this a sign that the Messiah is coming....but which messiah???

...and could the evil one be sooo deceptive as to lure, with deception, those to him...???

I'm keeping an open (but cautious) mind and heart on this one...
Marilyn, could this be a deception? I have seen the faces in the wall. After thinking about it, why would this be a sign to us when this is a Jewish site? I believe "if" it is a sign from the Lord He's trying to get the Jewish people's attention, not ours. Just my thought on the matter.... Agape

My reply

> > the water dripping is in the wrong location.

The wet stone is obviously not the fulfillment of Eze. 47. That is for after Christ returns and doesn't mean that we throw out every other thing that has to do with water and the temple mount.

Personally, I think the weeping white stone is a clue that I want to try to understand, not dismiss. The first thing I thought of was "Jesus wept" when he brought Lazarus back from the dead. Weeping and resurrection are connected. We know that from the Biblical viewpoint, Christ is our rock.

Rev 2:17 even mentions "a white stone." Jesus says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a WHITE STONE, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. "I wonder if this white stone with our new name on it is in the wall of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem?

The WALL of New Jerusalem has names on it. Rev. 21:14,15 says, "the WALL of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Are their names on stones?

What about the cornerstone and the foundation? 1Co 3:11 says, "other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Psa 118:22 says, "The stone (Jesus) which the builders refused is become the head stone (i.e., the King) of the corner" (Earth, a cherubim [planet], represented by the width of the curtain [embroidered with a cherubim] of the Tabernacle that hung over the back corner). Eph 2:19-21 says, "ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord."

Christ being our rock is reason enough for me to think about what this weeping white stone might indicate.

Rom 9:33 says, "I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and ROCK of offence: and whosoever believeth on HIM shall not be ashamed. 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

De. 32 is the Song of Moses. It applies to the end times. The Muslims march around and worship a meteorite at Mecca. It is certain that "their rock is not as our Rock" (v. 31). De. 32:2-4 says, "I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. HE IS THE ROCK, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Psa 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the ROCK of our salvation."

Since Christ is without iniquity, it makes sense to me that he could be aptly represented by a white rock. We don't worship the rock. We worship the Lord, but if water is coming out of the middle of a white stone in the western wall, that is unusual enough to get my attention. I think to myself, "What could the Lord be indicating by this unusual weeping from the stone itself, and not from the spaces between stones?"

Jesus wept, then raised Lazarus from the grave after he had been dead 4 days. John 11:39 says, "Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead FOUR DAYS." I notice that a stone is taken away. This is similar to Jesus going back to Heaven in 30 AD. After that, Jesus comes to resurrect Lazarus (meaning assistance of God). That could fore-shadow the resurrection at the Rapture. Before Jesus came to raise Lazarus, "he abode TWO DAYS still in the same place where he was" (Jn. 11:6). Does that correlate with Hos. 6:2? It says, "After TWO DAYS (i.e., 2000 years) will he revive us."

What if those 4 days represent the 4 years in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9? 1998 was well marked. It was the 480th year in the modern parallels. I think it was the 6000th year of man's test knowing both good and evil and being mortal. What if the 4 years represent 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002? Will the next resurrection come at the Rapture in 2002?

Do you want to dismiss this as idle speculation? I don't. The 4 days for Lazarus led up to resurrection. Resurrection happens at the Rapture. The 4 days could represent 4 years, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002. I'm hoping for the Rapture and resurrection this year.

> > could this be a deception? I have seen the faces in the wall. After thinking about it, why would this be a sign to us when this is a Jewish site? I believe "if" it is a sign from the Lord He's trying to get the Jewish people's attention, not ours.

And if they don't pay attention, does that mean we should do the same? No. We can't turn away from things because they are Jewish. Israel is the nationality of prophets who penned most of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. To them were given the scriptures. Rom 3:2 says, "unto them were committed the oracles of God." Jesus was Jewish. The early church was largely Jewish. What has the church that isn't based on Jesus and the scriptures?

I want to keep an open mind, look into things, consider the possibilities. Then I keep the good and throw away the rest. If the Lord is trying to show me something, I don't want to blind myself to the possibility. Agape

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