Pro and Con 931

Posted 7-25-02

Good pictures of wailing wall

http://www.hamline.edu/law/lawrelign/sacred/wwphot.html

http://www.digbible.org/tour/westernwall.html

My outgoing e-mail

Bob Ware wrote: > > John Fitzgerald Kennedy the 35th President
Vital statistics from which to extrapolate mathematical anomalies:

Born: 5-29-1917
Inaugurated as 35th President: 1-20-1961 (youngest President ever elected)
Most significant act as President: demanded Soviet Union dismantle Cuban missile base on 10-22-1962
Assassinated: 11-22-1963

Days served as President: 1036
Sum of the ASCII codes for ‘John Fitzgerald Kennedy’: 2153 (the number of his name in today’s world)

There has been much written about the anomalies between the assassinations of Abraham Lincoln and JFK. When you place the names of all 43 Presidents sequentially into the ‘Prime Cube’ Lincoln and his vice-president’s name Johnson fall in the last two places of column one. JFK and his vice-president’s name Johnson fall in the first two places of column three diagonally opposite Lincoln and Johnson. If you draw a line connecting these two pairs of Presidents it will pass through the center of the ‘Prime Cube’, which is the number 467. 467 is the sum of the three different gematrias for ‘God’ (86 Hebrew + 99 Prime + 282 ASCII). Lincoln served 1503 days prior to his assassination. 1503 minus the 1036 days of JFK’s term equals 467.
---
You stirred up questions that have been rolling around in my head ever since June 5, 1968, the day Bobby Kennedy died on the anniversary of the Six-Day War. He was already brain dead, but his heart kept beating 5 hours until June 5 arrived. Why? That seemed deliberate and miraculous. The doctors were astonished. To me, it was like a fist hitting an open hand indicating, look at this date, its important. It was. The Six-Day War was the Sign of the End of the Age. One 40-year generation from 1967 is 2007.

Besides that, it may have been to bring the Lincoln-Kennedy similarities to mind? Questions concerning those have tumbled around in my head too. The facts seem too perfectly aligned to be coincidence.

Beginning with Harrison and ending with JFK, there were 7 presidents that were inaugurated at 20-year intervals that died in office. Seven means completion, and what started with Harrison ended with JFK.

President - Inauguration
(1) Harrison - 1841
(2) Lincoln - 1861
(3) Garfield - 1881
(4) McKinley - 1901
(5) Harding - 1921
(6) Roosevelt - 1941
(7) Kennedy - 1961

> > (JFK) Born: 5-29-1917

Another nudge saying look at this? Our daughter was born on May 29 too. I had put a newspaper clipping dated May 29 in her baby book. It said that on May 29, 1917, JFK was born. Later, I found that 1917 was the 400th year of the Modern Parallels. As you know, Jerusalem was liberated miraculously in 1917 without a shot being fired. Why all these tie-ins?

All 7 of the presidents were Christian, but number 7 was the 1st Roman Catholic president. That stands out. Prophecies cast their shadows before them. Could this have been a shadow of a Tribulation leader that will be Catholic (which means universal). Could this be a shadow indicating that the 7th king of Rev. 17:10 will be Catholic, universal, covering the whole without limit or exception? Sounds like the world church to me.

Inaugurated on "1-20-1961 (youngest President ever elected)," JFK ruled over a period that was violently shortened on "11-22-1963."

At the time of the Rapture, Rev. 17:10 says of the 7 kings, "one is (the Tribulation Pope), and the other (the False Prophet) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." It is the 7th king that rules over the shortened Great Tribulation.

There is one verse in the Bible that seems to speak of the United States. 2Sa 7:23 says, "WHAT ONE (ECHAD, UNITED) NATION IN THE EARTH IS LIKE THY PEOPLE, EVEN LIKE ISRAEL, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

In Judges 5:11,12, there is a surprising passage. It says, "They (the US?) that are delivered from the noise of archers (warfare) in the places of drawing water (symbol of the Holy Spirit), THERE SHALL THEY REHEARSE THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE LORD, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then (after the rehearsal, ending in 1963?) shall the people of the LORD go down to the gates ('doors,' symbol of the 2 Raptures, Mt. 24:33: Rev. 3:8). Awake (uwr, lift up), awake (lift up), Deborah (word): awake (lift up), awake (lift up), utter A SONG (i.e., the new song of Rev. 5:9 and 14:3): ARISE (quwm, lift up again; i.e., 2nd Rapture?), Barak (LIGHTNING FLASH, symbol of Christ at the Rapture), and lead thy captivity captive, thou SON OF Abinoam (FATHER of pleasantness)."

Mat 24:27 says, "For as the LIGHTNING cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE." Mat 28:3 says, "His countenance was like LIGHTNING, and his raiment white as snow." Luke 17:22-25 speaks of the 2 Raptures as "DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN." Agape

Space rock 'on collision course'

An asteroid could devastate Earth
By Dr David Whitehouse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2147879.stm

7-24-02 An asteroid discovered just weeks ago has become the most threatening object yet detected in space. A preliminary orbit suggests that 2002 NT7 is on an impact course with Earth and could strike the planet on 1 February, 2019 - although the uncertainties are large.

Astronomers have given the object a rating on the so-called Palermo technical scale of threat of 0.06, making NT7 the first object to be given a positive value.

From its brightness, astronomers estimate it is about two kilometres wide, large enough to cause continent-wide devastation on Earth....

This asteroid has now become the most threatening object in the short history of asteroid detection

Dr Benny Peiser
It was first seen on the night of 5 July...

NT7 circles the Sun every 837 days and travels in a tilted orbit from about the distance of Mars to just within the Earth's orbit.

Potential devastation

Detailed calculations of NT7's orbit suggest many occasions when its projected path through space intersects the Earth's orbit.

Researchers estimate that on 1 February, 2019, its impact velocity on the Earth would be 28 km a second - enough to wipe out a continent and cause global climate changes....

BEGINNING OF THE 7 BAD YEARS, BUT NOT THE TRIBULATION WHEN THE SEALS ARE BROKEN

Violence Started Before Sharon's Visit to the Temple Mount Fri, 9-29-00 http://www.jewishlouisville.org/news/sharon.shtml
10-20-00...chronology of the events that occurred leading up to the outbreak of violence on Friday, September 29....

* The widespread violence erupted more than 24 hours after the vaisit (visit)....

* The riots occurred 24 hours later, following the broadcast of inciteful statements by official Palestinian radio and television stations.

* On September 28, four hours after the visit, the Palestinian Authority's official Voice of Palestine radio broadcast a statement by Yasser Arafat declaring the visit to be "a serious step against Muslim holy places." Arafat called upon the Arab and Islamic world to "move immediately to stop these aggressions and Israeli practices against holy Jerusalem."

* At 4:00 p.m., Palestinian Legislative Council speaker Ahmad Quray inflamed listeners to the Voice of Palestine radio by declaring that the visit "defiled" the mosques and "is a clear and flagrant expression of the Israeli schemes" against Muslim holy places....

Friday, September 29, 2000
* Qalqilya, West Bank - A Palestinian police officer participating in a joint security patrol with Israeli police suddenly shouted "Allahu Akbar" and killed his Israeli colleague....

* Rocks were thrown from the platform of the mosque compound onto Jewish worshippers in the plaza below. When the rioters entered the Temple Mount and Israeli Border Guards opened fire with rubber bullets.

* In the initial outbreak of violence, four Palestinians were killed and over 100 were wounded in clashes with Israeli police....

Incoming email

http://www.fivedoves.com/latterdayletters/showletter.php?id=3874
From: SLVance235@aol.com
"Re: Day of the Lord - following Jim's & Tex's Posts"
Posted 7-22-02

Dear Marilyn;
My statement was, "The Rapture and the covenant with the antichrist take place IN THE DAY OF THE LORD." to show that we are now in the 7th Day, the 6th day having ended in 2000. You responded that it could not be because "The millennial Day of the Lord can't start until AFTER ELIJAH COMES" and "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord (kurios) come." and ""the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." These things do not take place at the Pre-Trib Rapture."

You just showed in your response that there is more than one element in the Day of the Lord. This is my point exactly. Elijah will come before the conveant with the antichrist - which is part of the Day of the Lord. The natural elements will change once the covenant is broken in the Day of the Lord. And the Lord will indeed come as a thief in the night during the Day of the Lord.

Of course the things above do not happen at the Rapture! (except His coming as a thief in the night). But your response shows that even you see the Day of the Lord as having more than one event. And, it is much MORE! The Day of the Lord is MORE than ONE DAY and it is MORE than a single event. In fact, the Lord's Day encompasses all of the things that will happen during the 70th Week and the Second Week of Jacob's Trouble AND the covenant with the antichrist and the very end times scenes that you quoted!

Primarliy the Day of the Lord begins at the 7th Day, after the 6th Day - meaning, after the 6,000 years/6 days of man's dominion are OVER. They are OVER! The Jewish calendar is right...but it doesn't depend on the Jewish calendar anyway. It all hinges on the GENERATION WHICH SHALL NOT PASS AND WHICH SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED - and that Generation ends in 2007!

It was your work and study that convinced me that the Second Coming would indeed in 2007. And further study has confirmed that over and over. I believe it....but if this is so, then there is no 7-year tribulation like we have always been taught. And there must be a timeline that shows the 70th Week, the Second Week of Jacob's Trouble, AND the covenenant with the antichrist all must end at the same time before the end of the Generation that shall see all these things. That means the 70th Week has begun. That means the Second Week of Jacob's Trouble has begun. BUT, the covenant with the antichrist HAS NOT YET BEGUN. But the reason it can work out to coincide with the end of these other two is because God says He will shorten THOSE DAYS of the broken covenant. The covenant gets under way AFTER Elijah shows yup. It runs the first 1260 days - tied to the the witnesses ministry. Then at mid-point, the antichrist breaks the covenant. The shortened days which God said He would do is to save people from being annihilated....and it happens to coincide with the end of the 70th Week, the end of the 2nd Week of Jacob's Trouble, WHEN HE SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF IT!

Let me emphasize something here because alot of people don't seem to understand this: When one considers that at midpoint the antichrist is going to break the covenant and commit the abomination of desolation, entering the Temple and claiming himself god.....and at this time there is war in heaven and Michael, the prince of the people (Israel) casts satan out of heaven for good.......and he is cast down having great wrath.....and all of the persecution and hatred and evil is HERE on earth - PLUS man's own depraved heart causing evil deeds and sinful acts and war....PLUS God's judgments - man-made and natural - being poured out on this earth - how can anyone think that this CAN last for 3 1/2 years? It can't - or "else no flesh would be saved. The Great Tribulation is shortened for the elect's sake, as God says.

Having said that - the Day of the Lord, being the 7th Day that follows the 6th Day - is seen with NO TIME - NO EVENINGS AND MORNINGS. It is HIS Day. Even though time is still running for us - man's days of dominion are over.... it is TIME for the Lord to accomplish HIS plan and purpose. Everything that happens in the Lord's Day is directed by Him. He is the one that DETERMINED that last week for Israel. He is the one who will call us up in the Rapture. He is the one who will then break open the seals and trumpets and bowls. He is the one who has satan cast out of heaven for good. He is the one who pours out the judgments upon the world. This Day is directed by God HImself - and there are many events in it. To say that the Day of the Lord has only one event or purpose is error. There are many aspects to it - as you yourself have pointed out > The things you have described as being in the Day of the Lord are only part of it.

As far as John NOT being raptured (as you say) in Rev. before he records the letters to the churches - I have taken each and every word LITERALLY. The Scripture says he was taken up IN THE DAY OF THE LORD....this doesn't mean just "Sunday". The first thing he saw was NOT the Lord, but the churches ....then the Lord in the midst of the churches. When he sees the Lord, he describes Him as one of a High Priest and Judge. He sees him in the midst of the churches speaking TO the churches BEFORE the Rapture has happened. It has not yet happened and the churches are NOT YET in HEAVEN because it is clearly shown that the letters to the churches have not yet been written and DELIVERED. The letters to the churches are to be a call to repentance BEFORE He comes. After the letters to the churches are spoken by the Lord, THEN we see AFTER THESE THINGS a door was opened in heaven and a voice said COME UP HITHER. THIS is the Rapture!

I am not going to go on point by point until we finish with this point because it is too hard to rebutt ALL of it at once. But this is the beginning of my main point...that the 7th Day - call it the Day of the Lord - has already begun. And the Jewish calendar has been and is correct in their counting from the time of Adam's expulsion from the Garden, when he began to die. There was no reason to count any days BEFORE that. And, the reason - tradition- was known in ancient days that the so-called "missing 240 years" (5760 being 6,000 years) does indeed have an explanation....and that was the number of years Adam was in the Garden before he sinned and was expelled. And this "missing time" will be accounted for after the Second Coming - but I will not go into that at this point.

Marilyn, there is a danger in adamantly sticking to something simply because it always seemed to make sense BEFORE. But you yourself have quoted many times that we gain knowledge by building precept upon precept......but as we learn and see more, we sometimes have to change what we have always thought.

What I am asking you to do is set aside for a moment your notion that The Day of the Lord is simply the catastrophic end of these things that are coming - The Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord......it is MORE than that! And God, in the beauty of His simplicity (for those of us who aren't always too bright like me) is that something as simple as the 7th day follows the 6th Day and the Day of the Lord begins in the sense that all of the events that are transpiring, and are about to transpire to fulfil and complete and to make an end of sin and transgression, and to bring about the redemption of His Holy people, are simply more than one event, one day, and ALL of it is completely under the Lord's control now - to bring it about. Man's days are over. Israel is right now fulfilling the last DETERMINED SET WEEK that He designated for her. In it, Jacob will be saved out of his trouble. This is as far as I'm going to go with this for right now. I will get back with more. Shalom, Sherry

My reply

> > my main point...that the 7th Day - call it the Day of the Lord - has already begun.

There are several times that the Day of the LORD or the day of something else is stated, I'll try to list them and what I think they apply to.

However, first, we need to see clearly that God sometimes puts gaps in his Blueprint of Time, as he did between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9. Until the 70th week starts, the present is still a period of indefinite length in our eyes.

If we fail to understand that, we have put on blinders. If we think that our conception of the 7th day absolutely has to start the next day after we think the 6th day should be over, it is possible that we could shut out understanding of other truths. We have to keep an open mind and consider how each thing in Scripture fits together, whether it fits with our preconceived ideas or not.

Think of the time during the period of the Judges, before the 40-year reigns each of Saul, David and Solomon. There were 114 years of servitude that were not counted in the 480 years in I Ki 6:1, from the Exodus to the time construction began on the temple.

Israel is God's time clock. Starting with Abraham and Isaac, God's consecutive time has depended upon whether Israel was in fellowship or out of fellowship with the Lord. Theocratic time is advanced only when Israel is in fellowship. So, there can be gaps, and we are in one between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.

To me, the 70th week of Dan. 9:27 can't begin until the covenant is strengthened. It says, "he shall confirm (gabar, strengthen) the covenant with many (probably the UN) FOR ONE WEEK (of years): and in the midst of the week (shabuwa, septet) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." This is when the False Prophet sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy during the entire first half of the 7 years (1290 days, Rev. 11:3).

DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

1Co 1:7,8: "So that ye come behind in no gift; WAITING FOR THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

2Co 1:14: "ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in till THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS."

Phi 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST."

Phi 1:10: "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till THE DAY OF CHRIST."

Phi 2:16: "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in THE DAY OF CHRIST, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

Phi 2:15,16 "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in THE DAY OF CHRIST, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

TWO DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN, THE TWO RAPTURES

Luk 17:22: "he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN, and ye shall not see it."

Luk 17:26: "as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN." It will rain water at both Raptures. At the Pre-Trib Rapture, it will be the Spirit of Christ, of which water is a symbol. At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, not only will the Spirit of Christ come down, fire and brimstone will too. Luke 17:29,30 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in THE DAY WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED" (the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture.)

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, we will meet Jesus in the clouds. He will not reveal himself to those on Earth. At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, Jesus will be seen sitting on his throne in the sky. That is "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN" (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f).

DAY OF GOD, FIRST DAY OF THE MILLENNIAL DAY OF THE LORD

2Pe 3:12: "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of THE DAY OF GOD, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" This is the day the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth, the day the two asteroid pieces impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10).

DAY OF THE LORD

2Th 2:1,2: (Darby) "Now we beg you, brethren (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM (the Pre-Trib Rapture), that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that THE DAY OF THE LORD is present."

All major MSS have day of the Lord. Thus, THE DAY OF THE LORD is NOT PRESENT on Earth at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture.

However, THE DAY OF THE LORD is present at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The first day of the Day of the LORD, called the Day of God, is also called THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE.

Jer 30:7: "Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it." It is one single day, for no other day is like it. There are 2 ways Israelites will be saved in that day. First, 144,000 Messianic Jews will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7). Second, the nation will be saved in a day that day (Isa. 66:8). These will go on to live on Earth in the Millennium.

Dan 11:45, 12:1,2: "he (the Satan possessed False Prophet) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas (Mediterranean and Dead Sea) in the glorious holy mountain (Jerusalem); yet HE SHALL COME TO HIS END, and none shall help him. And at that time (the Day of God, 1st day of the Millennium) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE (JACOB'S TROUBLE), SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME (THE DAY OF GOD): and at that time (1st day of the Millennium) thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (at the Pre-Wrath Rapture).

This Day of God, day of Jacob's Trouble, day of the Pre-Trib Rapture and the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord can only be one literal day. No other day preceeding it was ever like it for Jer. 30:7 says. "NONE IS LIKE IT," and Dan. 12:1 says it is "A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME."

DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, 1ST DAY OF THE MILLENNIAL DAY OF THE LORD

Many things happen on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, but the Pre-Trib Rapture is not one of them. However, the Pre-Wrath Rapture is before noon on that 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord."

In sequence, first comes the Pre-Trib Rapture. Next comes the 1260-day ministry of the two witnesses. Following that is the reign of the False Prophet that is to be cut short by the 2 asteroid impacts, one mountain-sized piece in the Mediterranean Sea, the other larger "aster" at Babylon. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the same day that the asteroids hit, but before they strike at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5).

AGENDA OF THE FIRST DAY OF THE MILLENNIAL DAY OF THE LORD

Coronation of Christ in Heaven, when he receives his kingdom
Rapture of Tribulation saints
Judgment Seat of Christ (believers get rewards, unbelievers left on Earth get their just rewards for their stubborn unbelief, Rev. 11:18)
Marriage Supper of the Lamb

GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY, BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON

Rev 16:14,16: "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of THAT GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY....And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

> > the Lord's Day encompasses all of the things that will happen during the 70th Week and the Second Week of Jacob's Trouble AND the covenant with the antichrist

I think the 70th Week of Daniel runs from the strengthening of the covenant (probably the Oslo Accords) to the Day of God that begins the millennial Day of the Lord, in which Christ is king.

The time of Jacob's trouble is one literal day, not 14 years. I have already lived during 9 of these years and can vouch for it that there has not yet come "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Dan. 12:1). I can also vouch that we have not yet had a day like the one in Jer. 30:7. It says, "Alas! for that day (one day) is great, so that none (other day) is like it: it (the one day) is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

His rule is a full 1000 years. Rev. 20:4 says, "and they (the Tribulation saints caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." The 1st day of that 1000 years is when Christ is crowned and given his kingdom on the Day of God that is the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. If the Day of the Lord began at the 1st Rapture, and the Tribulation saints rule with Christ a 1000 years, the Day of the Lord would be 1000 years plus the Tribulation, roughly 7 years.

The only time "kuriaki hemera" is used in Scripture is in Rev. 1:10. It applies to the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is not the millennial Day of the Lord. It is "the Lord's day," THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

> > And the Jewish calendar has been and is correct in their counting from the time of Adam's expulsion from the Garden, when he began to die. There was no reason to count any days BEFORE that.

Chronologers have to count the days from Adam's creation. That is the only way God gave us the numbers we need to go by in figuring. He didn't tell us point blank when Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden. Agape Note: Sherry said, "It was your work and study that convinced me that the Second Coming would indeed in 2007." I think the Second Coming will be Apr. 6, 2008. That is 7 months after the Day of God that begins the millennial Day of the Lord on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

Letters from 5 Doves site

http://www.fivedoves.com/latterdayletters/showletter.php?id=3889
From: Kathy G., kgreen20@msn.com
"Re: Agee Re: Day of the Lord - following Jim's & Tex's Posts"

My reply

Vera: > > Daniel 7:25 "He will speak against the Most High and OPPRESS HIS SAINTS and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be "handed over to him" for a time, times, and half a time.
> > Rev. 13:7 "He was given power to make war against the saints and to "conquer them"...." NIV
> > My question is: If the saints that are left behind are handed over to him to be conquered, then how can there be a second rapture??

Kathy G: > > There can't be, and there won't. There will only be 1 Rapture, and that will take place before the Tribulation. If there were to be a succession of Raptures throughout the Tribulation, there would be no one to repopulate the earth when Jesus inaugurates His kingdom. No would there be a "multitude too great to be numbered" being martyred for accepting Jesus and rejecting the mark.

I am convinced that there are 2 Raptures. Otherwise, the remaining Tribulation saints would have to endure the Wrath of God. 1Th 5:9 says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, After the 2nd one, all the remnant of Israel will be saved (Isa. 66:8). That remnant will live on into the Millennium along with the sheep at the Judgment of the Nations (Mt. 25:31f). Besides that, the OT saints will be put back on Earth if that is the place they choose. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sarah choose the Heavenly City (Heb. 11:15,16).

Just because some saints are to be martyred doesn't mean that every one of the saints is killed. Rev. 12:14-17 says, "to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (the Great Tribulation, latter 3.5 years), from the face of the serpent (Satan in the body of the False Prophet). And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Messianic Jews). Agape

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