Pro and Con 941

Posted 8-25-02

Note: I am amazed at the vivid colors and big screen of the new monitor someone nice bought me. Thanks so much, and thank you Lord. After starting with the Mac 512K screen and working up, this 17" seems really BIG.

Upgrading The Temple Vessels

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=28817
Rabbi Menachem Makover, one of the heads of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, says that a leading Israeli silver company has signed on to the task of designing and manufacturing Holy Temple vessels....

Rabbi Makover said that that the Temple Institute has completed almost all the Temple vessels, "but with our meager budget, we were able to fashion them only according to the basic requirements of Halakhah (Jewish Law), and not in the most beautiful manner that the Holy Temple - 'the beauty of the world,' our Sages teach - would necessitate. HaTzorfim will redesign them in the beautiful manner that befits the Beit HaMikdash."

I learned something while reading "The Judgments before Jesus Returns," by Norbert Lieth (Midnight Call, Sept. 2002)

Zech. 5:
> > "I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof is ten cubits. Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth...
> > It is certainly no coincidence that the halls of Solomon's Temple, in which the Law was read aloud, had the same measurements as the scroll Zechariah saw: "And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house" (1st Kings 6:3). The scroll was not rolled up, but spread out so that it covered the porch of the Temple.
> > When God's judgments are poured out over the world, the Word of God will be unrolled, or opened, and will be the only measure according to which the Lord will judge. Everything contained in the Holy Scriptures will be fulfilled--including the judgments.

I think the flying rolling thing is "the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth," the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 that orbit "over the face of the whole earth" before they impact Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. However, I learned something when I read about the porch of the temple being the same measurements as the rolling thing.

The Holy of Holies was a cube that represented Heaven, or rather, a sphere that would fit inside a box having length, width and height equal. I think this sphere represented Saturn.

The Holy Place was two cubes, i.e., two spheres. I think the one next to the Holy of Holies represented Jupiter and the other one represented Mars. In II Cor. 12, Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven. They would be (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter, and (3) Saturn.

Since the dimensions of the flying rolling thing match the dimensions of the porch of the temple, I can see now that the porch represented the binary asteroid that is also twice as long as it is wide. It flies over the face of the Earth and comes between Mars and the Earth, which was represented by the Brazen Altar upon which sacrifices were made.

This is why they could also build an altar of earth. Ex. 20:24 says, "An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee."

Incoming e-mail, Re: Coins on the eyes of the Shroud

I just wanted to comment on this issue about the Shroud of the Turin. I took a class studying the Jewish Festivals with Joseph Good who teaches that the coins on the eyes represented a pagan practice in which the coins were money needed to pay the ferry man who took the deceased across the river styx into the nether world. I don't not believe it is real no matter how much evidence is found. The Bible clearly can be used to refute such nonsense. Firstly, the Ten Commandments tell of how no IMAGE was to be made of God; Secondly, Isaiah 53 depicts a man who could not be recognized as a man! This person on the shroud is definetely recognizable as a man. If any of these two scriptures are in opposition to or not able to coexist with these scriptures then only one can be thrown out as false. The Shroud is a hoax based upon the Word of God.

My reply

The Shroud of Turin now seems to be the real thing. The image is a negative instead of a positive. There is no way it could have been painted. The image is only on the very top threads. Nothing wicked down a thread as paint would do. God probably arranged for the Shroud to be authenticated near the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. > > I took a class studying the Jewish Festivals with Joseph Good...I don't not believe it is real no matter how much evidence is found. We have to take what mankind says with a grain of salt. He/she may be right and they may be wrong. What if Joe Good is wrong on this? You no longer are open to examine new facts. Your mind is made up, set in concrete--no matter what. That's a dangerous way to be. It is better to keep an open mind and find out as much as you can about the subject. Modern technology can do more today than it could a few years back.

In "The Resurrection of the Shroud of Turin,"
(http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/easter/Shroud.html)
Alan D. Whanger, M.D. says, "The Shroud of Turin is an ancient piece of fine linen, 14 feet 3 inches long by 3 feet 7 inches wide, with the front and back images of a male who has been SCOURGED, BEATEN, CROWNED WITH THORNS, CRUCIFIED, AND PIERCED IN THE HEART in a manner consistent with the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth as described in Scripture." In "Research by Dr. and Mrs. Whanger,"
(http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/whanger.htm),
it says, "On closer examination, the Whangers have found that there are images of many objects in addition to those of the body, and that these images show evidence of electron coronal discharge radiation. These additional objects include a crucifixion nail, a Roman spear, a sponge on a stick, a crown of thorns, two scourges, a large hammer, a pair of pliers, and two desecrated Jewish phylacteries or prayer boxes. All are consistent with 1st Century objects, with Roman crucifixions of Jews, with Jewish burial practices, and/or with Biblical accounts of the Crucifixion of Jesus....

"Several findings of the Whangers show the origin of the Shroud images to be from Israel in the spring of AD 30. Evidence for this includes the images of large numbers of flowers banked around the body. The Whangers have identified 28 species, 20 of which grow in Jerusalem and the other 8 within 12 miles of Jerusalem, with a common blooming time of March and April. The pollens of 25 of these have been independently identified by Dr. Max Frei, a Swiss criminalist and botanist, as being present on the Shroud from sticky tape samples that he took in 1973 and 1978. Visible over each eye are detailed images of two different lepton coins (widows mites) of Pontius Pilate, each dated AD 29."

It seems to me that the coins might date to 27 AD. They were minted in the 16th year of Tiberius, who had full rule over Palestine after being made Co-Rex in 12 AD. Augustus busied himself with other parts of his realm and died in 14 AD. 12 AD would have been the 1st year of Tiberius; 27 AD would have been the 16th year. That was the year of the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry.

In "The force was in the cloth,"
http://www.einterface.net/gamini/shroud.html, it says,

"Professor Balossino has compared the coin with Palestinian coinage of the same period in the British Museum, and points out that it was common Hebrew practice to place coins on or near the eyes after death." It also says, "

Don Guiseppe Ghiberti, deputy head of the Turin Commission for the Display of the Shroud says the shroud not only shows the likeness of the man who was wrapped in it, it also shows marks of blood on the forearms and around the waist, with evidence of 50 blows.

He deduces that there were two flagellators one on the right and one on the left with orders to hit the man on all parts of the body except near the heart. The cuts and scratches on the forehead and nape make one think of the crown of thorns on Jesusís head. There is also evidence of bruising on the shoulders from carrying the crossbar."

If Jesus got 50 blows, that was more than other men got. Others were given 39, so the count would be sure to not go over 40 lashes. They were forbidden to exceed 40. In 2Co 11:24, Paul said, "Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one."

> > Firstly, the Ten Commandments tell of how no IMAGE was to be made of God

Read the commandment carefully. MAN was not to make an image. Ex. 20:4 says, "Thou shalt not..." God is free to do whatever he wants. He had the Israelites make the cherubim on either side of the Ark, didn't he? He had to have made the image on the Shroud of Turin, because with all our modern technology, there is no way we could duplicate it.

> > Secondly, Isaiah 53 depicts a man who could not be recognized as a man!

I don't think that is what Scripture means. Isa. 52:14 (KJV) says, "his visage (mar'eh, appearance) was so marred more than any man, and his form (to'ar, figure, appearance) more than the sons of men." Since he was given 50 lashes, and only 39 were given others, this makes sense.

Here are some other translations that may help us understand what the passage really means.

Isa. 52:14,15 (Rotherham) says, "The more that Many, were amazed at thee, So marred, beyond any manís, was his appearance,óAnd his form, beyond the sons of men, The more doth he startle Many nations."

Isa. 52:14 (YLT) says, "As astonished at thee have been many, (So marred by man his appearance, And his form by sons of men.)"

I will put some more references Re: the Shroud of Turin on Pro and Con 941. Agape

A Shroud Of Mystery!

http://www.heavenlyparadise.cjb.net/shroud/shroud1.htm
In 1889, something extraordinary happened. Technical progress had made it possible for the first photograph of the the Shroud to be taken. As the photographer, Secundo Pia, examined his first glass-plate negative, he almost dropped it in shocked excitement. What he saw was not an unrealistic and confusing photographic negative, but a clear positive image. Highlights and shadows were reversed from those on the cloth, & were far more lifelike & realistic, & the positive image of a man's face was clearly visible. Pia's sensational photograph showed that the actual image on the Shroud was a negative image!

How could a negative image be produced on a piece of cloth centuries before the invention of photography?...

Leo Vala, a noted photographic expert who pioneered the development of 3-D-photography, recently told Amateur Photographic magazine, "
I can tell you that NO ONE could have faked that image. NO ONE could do it today, even with all the technology we have."...

...Dr, John Heller of Yale medical school, the blood expert of the team. Today he admits, "NO QUESTION IN MY MIND! There was a scourged, crucified man in the Shroud."

STURP team member, Dr. Robert Bucklin, chief pathologist of the Los Angeles city morgue, states: "If I were asked in a court of law to stake my professional reputation on the validity of the shroud of Turin, I would answer very positively & firmly that it is the burialcloth of Christ. It's Jesus Whose figure appears on the Shroud. It is not a matter of faith to me, it's just a matter of common sense. Knowing what we know, who else could this have happened to?"...

what then could have created this mysterious image? The general consensus is that the molecular composition of the image is similar to faint scorch of some kind, yet the scientists cannot determine by what means such a delicate image could have been made. It is now being suggested that an unknown energy force was applied to the lifeless body wrapped within the Shroud, & that a burst of extremely high intensity heat or light for an extremely short duration--probably milliseconds--somehow caused the Shroud to become a primitive polaroid film. Robert Dinager of the Los Alamos scientific laboratory in New Mexico stated, "It seems as if the image possibly came from some short-term pulse of energy. You could say it was instantaneous. It would have had to be a pretty good amount of energy, but not too much or it would have destroyed the cloth."...

Marx, a coin expert for more than 35 years and owner of M. and R. Coins and Stamps in Oak Lawn, Ill. Concurs with the theologian.

"As a coin expert, I can confirm that the coin that appears on the cloth is one of the coins issued only during the last seven years that Pontias Pilate was governor of Judea--A.D. 29 to 36," he said.

"The markings on the coin date the shroud within that seven years period. The shroud is obviously real."...

DNA Tests Find Jesus' Blood On Turin Shroud
...experiments which show that the "blood" on the shroud is ancient and contains XY chromosomes--which establishes it as human and male. The tests were conducted by a team headed by Dr Victor Tryon, director of the Center for Advanced DNA Technology at the University of Texas Health Science Center. Gene segments from the stains showed that the blood came from a male with an AB blood type, common among Jewish people....

If Jesus Shroud is what it proves itself to be, then we can be sure, that this picture was burned into it in 30 A.D. when Jesus' soul was not left in Hades, but came back into his body, when it was transformed into a supernatural resurrection body....

THE COINS OF PONTIUS PILATE

Jean-Philippe Fontanille
PILATE'S COINS AND TURIN SHROUD
http://www.numismalink.com/fontanille4.html

In 1980, an electronic analysis performed in the Overland Park Laboratory in Texas confirmed not only the soundness of Professor Filas' findings, but also allowed the admission of evidence of another coin on the right eye, without however being able to identify why precise details were absent. Other researchers, Alan and Mary Wanger, took up the investigation in 1985, applying the technique of polarised light superimposition; they though they detected on the left eye coin the three ears of barley encircled with faint traces of letters: this indicated that it could be the coin minted in year 29.

Pilate coins and Turin Shroud

Note: pictures of both coins are on this site.
http://www.pilatecoins.com/coins_on_turin_shroud.htm

The Shroud of Turin

http://www.observations.net/shroud.html
...Dr. Joseph Kohlbeck of the Hercules Aerospace in Utah, with help from Dr. Richard Levi-Setti of the University of Chicago's Enrico Fermi Institute, compared dirt from the Shroud to travertine aragonite limestone found in the area of Jerusalem. There was a perfect chemical match. Remarkably, there are no places on earth, other than the Jerusalem locale, where aragonite is known to have the same exact chemical signature as that found in the dirt on the Shroud....

Turin shroud 'probably was genuine'

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_599548.html
Swiss textile expert, Dr Mechthild Flury-Lemberg...said it could be clearly dated as having been woven in the period 40 years before the birth of Christ to up to 70 years after.

The Resurrection of the Shroud of Turin

Alan D. Whanger, M.D.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mag/TSmgenC4.html
...there are identifiable images of two Jewish coins, the 'leptons' or widow's mites of Pontius Pilate, one over each eye. Both coins were struck in A.D. 29. Eusebius, the early Church historian, dates the transfer of an object (the Shroud, which was rolled and mounted in a frame so that only the face showed) from Jerusalem to King Abgar in Edessa in A.D. 30.

THE MYSTERIOUS SHROUD OF TURIN

Guido Pagliarino
http://www.pagliarino.com/sindone/shroud/intro.htm
...The human image impressed on the Shroud is like one of a negative film. Therefore, impressed photographically on a film, or more anciently on a negative slab, it appears positive as if the Man had been reflected and into this mirror-Shroud his image had been photographed: therefore, as in every negative and for an image into the mirror, what is left appears like right and, on the contrary, the right appears like the left.

Shroud of Turin evidence for it's authenticity abounds

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=009J73
...Heat simply cannot produce the level of detail found in the Shroud since it disperses in all directions. X-Ray: Giles Carter, a Shroud researcher has suggested the possibility that the body emitted x-rays. There is some indication of x-ray imagery in the area of the mouth and the fingers on the hands. Dr. Alan Whanger has identified teeth and carpal bones in the hands. But as Dr. Alan Adler has noted, whereas it makes sense chemically and physically, it is biologically bizarre. Anyone with that much radiation in them would have been dead long before being crucified, according to Adler".

The Shroud of Turin

By Fr. Vittorio Guerrera
http://www.tanbooks.com/books/shro1759.htm
...Covered here are the evidence from pollen on the Shroud, the way the Shroud matches the head cloth (preserved in Spain), the coins on the eyes and their dates, the nature and number of the wounds on the body, the nature of the actual image on the Shroud, why it could not possibly be a painting, the positive and negative image, what seemingly caused the image, the linen material itself, the Shroud's known history, the dirt on the feet of the body, what caused the person to die, the proofs the subject was buried quickly, etc.

Decide for yourself if the Shroud of Turin is real l

http://www.bibleprobe.com/turin.htm
Pollen and flower fragments; wood cells
...Max Frei, a Swiss criminologist examined the Shroud fibers between 1973 and 1983, and identified 58 types of pollen from plant species on the shroud from Jerusalem, Turkey, France and Italy. Some of the flower fragments point to flowers blossoming in the Jerusalem area in March-April. Jesus' crucifixion date is believed to be April 6, 30 AD. More recently tiny wood cells from the scalp area have been identified with Oak (commonly used wood for Crucifixion)....

Image magnification and enhancement

With the aid of a VP-8 Image analyzer, Sandia Laboratory scientists John Jackson and Eric Jumper were able to show that the Shroud image has three dimensional features unlike a photographic image....The manufacturer of the VP-8 Analyzer who watched it had a life changing experience!...

The Evidence

http://www.theshroudofturin.com/evidence.htm
THE SUDARIUM CHRISTI - THE FACE CLOTH OF CHRIST

In the Cathedral of Oviedo in northern Spain is a linen cloth called the Sudarium Christi or the Face Cloth of Christ. It is often referred to as the Cloth of Oviedo. Modern studies of the Spanish Centre for Sindonology (Dr. Jose Villalain, Jaime Izquierdo and Guillermo Heras of the University of Valencia as noted by Oviedo scholar Mark Guscin) via infrared and ultraviolet photography and the electron microscope have demonstrated that this Cloth, along with the Shroud of Turin, both touched the same face. Tradition and historical information (now supported by contemporary scientific research) support the belief of millions of people that the face touched by both cloths was that of the historical Jesus of Nazareth. The two cloths are believed to have touched the same face at different points in the burial process. The Oviedo Cloth was placed around the head from the death on the Cross to the envelopment in the Shroud in the Garden Tomb, when it was removed and placed to one side (John 20:7).

"FROM: 5 DOVES SITE, Re:RAPTURE-THE POSSIBILITY COULD BE THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES"

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2002/markc824.htm
Mark Copfer (24 Aug 2002)

The Feast of Tabernacles will be fulfilled during the fulfillment of the millenial reign of Christ after the second coming. It is also known as Sukkot.

One of the most outstanding truths of the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) involves the seasonal rains in Israel. The prophet Joel (Yoel) tells us that the former and latter rain would come in the first month (Joel [Yoel] 2:23). This is because Passover (Pesach) is the first month in the religious or sacred calendar, and Sukkot (Tabernacles) is the first month in the civil calendar. So Israel has two first months in the same year because of the special calendar that G-d set up in Exodus (Shemot) 12:2.

Hosea (Hoshea) 6:3 tells us that the coming of the Messiah will be as the former and latter rain on the earth. We just saw in the previous section that Yeshua came to earth (was born) during the festival of Sukkot (Tabernacles), the first month of the civil calendar, and died at His first coming during the first month (Nisan) on the sacred calendar. His second coming will also be in the first month of the civil calendar, Tishrei. Yeshua will return to earth during the fall of the year.

G-d promised Israel that upon their obedience to the covenant He made with them at Mount Sinai (Exodus [Shemot] 34:10; Deuteronomy [Devarim] 5:2; 29:12-15), that He would give them the rains in their due season (Deuteronomy [Devarim] 11:10-17). No rain was a sign of judgment and the curse of G-d on the land as well as on the people (l Kings [Melachim] 8:33-43; 17:1-7; 18:41-46; Proverbs [Mishlai] 16:15; Amos 4:6-13; Joel [Yoel] 1:10-12). Today, the land of Israel is becoming green once again (Isaiah [Yeshayahu] 35:1; Ezekiel [Yechezekel] 36:24-38; Joel [Yoel] 2:18-27).

The rain is a type of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) being poured out upon all flesh (Acts 2:1-8,14-21; Joel [Yoel] 2:23,28-29). The Word of G-d (Torah) is likened to the rain (Deuteronomy [Devarim] 32:1-3; Isaiah [Yeshayahu] 55:8-12; Ephesians 5:26). The Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is also likened to the rain (Joel [Yoel] 2:21-32; Acts 2:1-8,14-21; James 5:7; John 7:37-39). Rain is associated with righteousness in Hosea (Hoshea) 10:12. G-d has made His righteousness available for all who believe on the Messiah (Romans 3:21-22; 5:17).

Yeshua is the rain that came down from Heaven as well as the living water and the fountain of living water spoken of in John (Yochanan) 4:4-6,10-14,20-24; and Revelation 21:6 and 22:1-5,17. Yeshua desires that we drink of the water He gives, which results in everlasting life (John 4:14) that we might be filled (Matthew 5:6).

Rain also speaks of revival, restoration, and returning to G-d (Teshuvah) and trusting (emunah) in Him. Just as the rain came after Elijah prayed seven times for it (1 Kings [Melachim] 18:41-46), the great rain or outpouring of G-d's Holy Spirit will come when the believers in the Messiah will earnestly pray to G-d that it be done. G-d has already declared that He would pour out His Holy Spirit during the seventh month, which is a spiritual picture of the end of the age (Olam Hazeh). So far, we have for the most part seen only showers of blessing (Ezekiel [Yechezekel] 34:26). The greatest outpouring of G-d's Spirit is yet to come. The feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) and the rain speaks of a mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit of G-d, a universal outpouring of His Spirit. This outpouring will be accompanied by signs and wonders and manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) as well as a revelation and illumination of the Word of G-d beyond all that has ever been seen in the history of the congregation of believers (kehilat) in the Messiah. This outpouring will touch every nation, both Jew and non-Jew. The believer in the Messiah who is living at the time of the latter rain is called to seek the L-rd and ask Him to send rain on the people of the earth (Zechariah 10:1; Psalm [Tehillim] 46:4; 65:9-10; Jeremiah [Yermiyahu] 5:23-24; 31:10-14).

The fullness of this feast in the seventh month will be experienced at the coming of the Messiah when He will rule and reign on the earth during the Messianic age, the Millennium, called the Athid Lavo in Hebrew eschatology. This time will be a time of joy for all believers in the Messiah Yeshua and will be the age of Israel's glory.

YBIC, Mark Copfer
Visit The Bless Hope Prophecy Forum
http://pub28.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2340524032

My Reply to Mark Copfer, Re: date of First and Second Advents

> > One of the most outstanding truths of the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) involves the seasonal rains in Israel. The prophet Joel (Yoel) tells us that the former and latter rain would come in the first month (Joel [Yoel] 2:23). This is because Passover (Pesach) is the first month in the religious or sacred calendar, and Sukkot (Tabernacles) is the first month in the civil calendar.

When Dr. Charles Fineberg was dean of Talbot Theological Seminary, a friend took me to her church to hear him preach. He taught me something I have never forgotten. Scripture is consistent. When the month is mentioned, and the day number omitted, the first day of the Hebrew month is to be understood.

The word for month is chodesh, which also means the New Moon, and is associated with the first day of each month. Psa 81:3 says, "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon (chodesh, new moon, month, i.e., 1st day of the month), in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day." The Feast of Trumpets is the only feast set on the 1st day of the month.

Deu 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land (eretz, Israel) in HIS (THE LORD'S) DUE SEASON, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN." The first rain comes on Tishri 1 (when Jesus was born), and the latter rain comes on Nisan 1 (when Jesus will return on the 1st day of the Regnal and Sacred Year).

Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter (Nisan 1, Second Advent) and former (Tishri 1, First Advent) rain (symbol of the Spirit of Christ), unto the earth."

The Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8:9 says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Eze. 29:17,21 sets the day of the Second Advent, and by so doing suggests the date of the First Advent. The date of Nisan 1 is set in verse 17, "in the first month, in the first day of the month" (Eze. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word, John 1:1-3) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD (YHVH)." Agape, Marilyn Agee

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