Pro and Con 943

Posted 8-31-02

Incoming email

Just wanted to congratulate you on your Gold Medallion Award. I for one, know how your inspired writings have helped me in my walk with the Lord. I too applaud you..... A well deserved commendation.... and another awaiting you, I"m sure, when you arrive at Yeshua"s heavenly throne,... God bless you and Ed for caring and helping all of us in understanding our Lord"s Word. Looking forward to meeting you both very soon. Hallejulah.!!!! Agape, ysic

My reply

Thanks. I'm just trying to "publish, and conceal not," as Jer. 50:2, the verse I saw a rectangle of light on, says.

Ed is stronger, only falls back in his recliner once in awhile instead of about 4 times. He can walk with a longer step when he concentrates on it. Thank you Lord. Agape

Incoming email, Re: latest P&C on the shroud

Excellent!

2 other facts: The stains on the sudarium match the stains in the face area of the shroud exactly. The fact that the blood is XY, type AB refutes Ron Wyatt's claim who said the blood was haploid (not truly human, only having half the number of human chromosomes).

Also there recently was reported a picture of half of a sign board in Greek burned into the shroud, presumably the "INRI" sign from the cross...

Thanks so much!

My reply

Thank you. The board next to the left leg had Nazareth in another language on it. It must have once said, "JESUS OF NAZARETH." John 19:19 says, "Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS." In Luke 23:38 we find out that the superscription was written in "Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew."

There's a good article, Shroud of Turin, at:
http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm
The Sudarium of Oviedo, a smaller cloth napkin, was placed over the face and about the head of the same man whose blood stains are on the Shroud.

It was customary among Jews to cover the head or face of the dead out of respect while burial preparations were underway, particularly if there was damage or injury. In 1955, the Most Reverend Monsignor Guilio Ricci discovered similarities in the blood stain patterns on the Sudarium and the blood stains on the Shroud. This suggested that both cloths had been used at some time to cover the same injured head at closely different times. Recent forensic pathology, blood chemistry analysis, and additional studies of congruent patterns in the stains support this supposition....

A 1999 report, "Recent Historical Investigations on the Sudarium of Oveido," published by Mark Guscin, a member of the multi-disciplined Investigation Team of the Centro Español de Sindonología and the British Society for the Turin Shroud, summarized the forensic findings to date. Here are some highlights of that report:
"It seems to be a funeral cloth that was probably placed over the head of the corpse of an adult male of normal constitution. The man whose face the Sudarium covered had a beard, moustache and long hair, tied up at the nape of his neck into a ponytail."...

"The man suffered a pulmonary oedema as a consequence of the terminal process. The main stains are one part blood and six parts fluid from the pulmonary oedema."...

Dr. Alan Whanger, of Duke University, confirmed the similarities in the blood stain patterns using the Polarized Image Overlay Technique. Dr. Whanger found over seventy congruent blood stain patterns on the face and over fifty on the back of the head and neck. This was independently confirmed by Thomas Vuke using computerized methods for assessing congruence of the blood stains....

Nello Balossino, also from the University of Turin found that the traces of blood on both cloths match perfectly....

THE EDESSA CLOTH...was discovered in the city walls in 544. Historians think that the Edessa Cloth, also known as the Mandylion, is what we now call the Shroud of Turin....
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How interesting. The shroud was found in the walls. Chances are good that it was in a cornerstone. "Psa 118:22 says, "The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." Agape

Incoming email, Re: Fall Feasts?

what do you think of John Tng on Five Doves who states that the Lord showed him the Rapture is on Sept. 21 the Feast of Sukkot I ? Are the Trumpets blown during this feast? I thought the trumpets were blown everyday a hundred times during the feast of Trumpets. The scriptures say at the last trumpet the dead will be raised and we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet them in the air with the Lord. I have always understood our first Rapture to be during the feast of Trumpets. HELP!

My reply

I don't know whether all those numbers are significant or not. I just think to myself, "Maybe." If they tie in with clear Scripture statements, their tie-in is obvious. If they don't, maybe.

Your asking about the trumpets made me think. Trumpets are blown at all feasts and every head of the month. If I remember right, Greg Killian said that to the Jews, the first trump is on Pentecost, the Last Trump on the Feast of Trumpets, and the Great Trump on the Day of Atonement. That would leave one more to be sounded at Tabernacles. On the Feast of Trumpets, there would also be a last trump, number 100. The ten days from Tishri 1 to the Day of Atonement on Tishri 10 could fit the 10 days in Rev. 2:10.

The trumpets Scripture says to sound at feasts are shofars, ram's horns. The 2 silver trumpets of Nu. 10:1-4 are to be used "for the calling of the assembly (Heb. 12:22,23: "general assembly" in heaven), and for the journeying of the camps." To me, they seem related to the 2 Raptures. Nu. 10:1-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (i.e., the 24 elders of Rev. 4:4), shall gather themselves unto thee."

The 1st trump would call the Bride saints up Pre-Trib. Then, on the day of the General Assembly in Heaven, the 1st trump would sound again to gather the Bride saints in Heaven to the General Assembly (as in Mt. 24:31). Then the 2nd trump would sound to call the rest of the saints on Earth to Heaven (as in Mark 13:27), i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

What dates seem most likely for these 2 silver trumpets to sound? maybe the Feast of Trumpets both times? I think the General Assembly will be on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). Maybe the 1st Rapture will be on an earlier Feast of Trumpets. Let's wait and see what happens on Sept. 6/7 2002.

I found the following article interesting:
EU foreign ministers back 'road-map' for Palestinian state http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=203468

Reuters - European Union foreign ministers Saturday (3-31-02) endorsed a "road-map" drawn up by EU president Denmark for establishing peace in the Middle East.

Meeting in the Danish seaside town of Elsinore, the 15 ministers backed a three-stage plan which envisages the creation of an independent Palestinian state in June 2005, with the full consent of Israel and moderate Arab states.

"The aim is the creation of a Palestinian state on the basis of the borders of 1967," said French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin....

He would then travel to New York on September 16 to present the plan to other members of the so-called Quartet - which also groups the United States, the United Nations and Russia - which is coordinating efforts to end the Middle East conflict....The first phase of the road map would cover the period up to Palestinian elections in early 2003.

It would bring an Israeli-Palestinian security agreement, with a restructured Palestinian security service and a gradual Israeli withdrawal from reoccupied Palestinian-controlled Area A.

The second phase would last until the establishment of a Palestinian state with provisional borders by August 2003.

This stage would require the formation of a Palestinian Authority with new legitimacy, drafting of a new constitution and negotiations on a state with provisional borders with the Quartet and the three moderate Arab states as facilitators.

The final, longer phase would end with the establishment of a final Palestinian state in June 2005. During this period negotiations on permanent status issues - Jerusalem, borders, settlements and refugees - would begin. Agape

"Rapture During The Tribulation"

Mabel R - on Five Doves (28 Aug 2002)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2002/mabelr828-4.htm

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Why were the people Beheaded? Because they held on to the testimony of Jesus and refused to worship the beast or receive his mark during the tribulation.

Conclusion: The scripture talks of a second chance for those left behind. Unfortunately for them however, it would not be a rapture. Instead, it will be a tough decision between receiving the mark of the beast or being beheaded for Christ's sake. After all is said and done, all those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast will be subject to beheading, therefore leaving absolutely no room for a second rapture scenario. In Him, Mabel

My reply to Mabel's no "Rapture During The Tribulation"

I don't know of any Scripture that says that ALL believers will be beheaded during the Tribulation. Some will. Rev. 6:11 says that the martyrs "should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The saints that flee to Petra are not beheaded.

Zeph. 2: 3-5 tells people to seek the Lord so they will be "hid" during the Day of God's wrath. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is just before God's wrath hits earth. It says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (cathar, be absent; i.e., raptured) in the day of the LORD'S anger (Tishri 1, Joel 1:15; 2:1-3). For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast." The mountain sized asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will fall into the Mediterranean Sea. Agape

Mabel's reply

From: Mabel R, mabel@boardermail.com
From now onwards, Please DONT EVER respond to ANY of my questions because your answers are more disastrous than helpful to me. Hope you'll understand that!
Mabel

Incoming email

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2002/gloriac827.htm
I thought this was interesting to say the least. I'M in agreement with this. I would like to know what your thoughts are on this and what you have in scripture to back this or refute this. Ready and Watching for the Master Shepherd, Jesus Christ.
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Gloria McCrea (27 Aug 2002) "God Loves the Jews / 144,000 / Foolish Virgins / Split Rapture"

In reiterating his NDE, Howard Storm wrote ("My Descent Into Death," c. 2000, Anthropoposghslic Press) - "I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming & beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, & children. They were exhausted from hunger & thirst They were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up & sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed they were going to work camps, & their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

"We went to the area where the selection process was taking place & we heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker". We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker", which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into ovens, & I began to cry. Jesus said to me, "These are the people God loves." Then He said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up to the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people & there appeared to be no trace of memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker,"

"I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me this was not God's will, This was an abomination to God. God wants this to never happen again.

This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom GOD HAD GIVEN THE LAW TO BE AN EXAMPLE, A LIGHT, TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart. The anguish that Jesus was suffering at the slaughter of His people was too much to bear, & I begged that we leave this place. I will never forget this: His anguish at this horror, & what it represents.

This was one of the low points in human history." I believe the 144,000 will be totally Jewish, not Christians (i.e. replacement theology. They will be called from Israel to be protected in, probably, Petra, & will be enlightened to preach the gospel during the tribulation.

I believe the "foolish virgins" are NOT "born-again" Christians who haven't "measured up" to be raptured - but, rather, church-going liberalists (liberalists: they have the name, but not the game. Oil represents the Holy Spirit: only those who are "born-again" can have the Holy Spirit. There ARE people who are fooling themselves who think GOOD WORKS (salvation through self-effort can save them.) Liberalists, who have never been, truly, "born-again."

I believe "born-again" Christians, at the Rapture, who are "in sin" may lose rewards ("saved so as by fire - their works will be burned up.") The, apparent, resurrection / "rapture" during the tribulation, possibly near it's end, I believe is for those who have been saved during the tribulation - MOST martyred, some, possibly, not.

If wrong, I'll someday "stand corrected." But for now, it's the truth as I see it. In Him, Gloria McCrea

My reply

I agree with most of it.

The foolish virgins are left behind at the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are caught up together with the other Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (unwise) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 22:12 says, "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Mat 22:1314 says, "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness (outside the door, symbol of the Rapture, Mt. 24:32-34, Rev. 3:8); there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN."

Rev. 17 is a view at the time of the 1st Rapture. In v. 14, those "that ARE with him (the Lamb, i.e., Christ) are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful.

After the Pre-Wrath Rapture, all saints, great and small, are awarded their rewards. Rev. 11:15f shows that it is Christ's Coronation Day and the Day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. It says, "Rev 11:15 says, "the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall REIGN for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (IN HEAVEN); and shouldest destroy them (THE UNBELIEVERS ON EARTH) which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an EARTHquake, and great hail." These are caused by the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10. The 10 Commandments were written on TWO STONES, because there were TWO STONES that would impact Earth.

Zech. 5:1-4 shows that THE CURSE (binary asteroid) orbits over the face of the Earth. It says, "Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll (rotating thing). And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then said he unto me, This is THE CURSE that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it (the Binary asteroid) forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet, a thief like Judas Iscariot), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Pope, who claims infallibility): and it (the asteroid) shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof." His house will be moved to Babylon (Zech. 5:11), in the land of Shinar (Gen. 11:2), where the Tower of Babel was started. Agape

Incoming email

Click here:
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2002/loriej827.htm
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Re: "Today is the day of Salvation"
Lorie Jean, artladylj@hotmail.com (27 Aug 2002)
Hello John and Doves,
The rapture may be very soon as we are all hoping and preparing our hearts for. But I do feel a deep sorrow for those who will be left behind and here to face the Tribulation.

I have read Revelation (as many of you have too) and quite frankly it's enough to scare the Hell out of someone. In God's mercy, I think He wanted Revelation to do just that.

We are seeing on a small scale the disease and pestulence and natural dissasters that are going to come. People are nervouse about the West Nile Virus, but have no idea they should be nervouse about the 7 trumpet judgements! If they think this is scary stuff now - AIDS and school shootings and viruses and the talk of WWIII... they have no idea what is really coming.

I know this is really bad, but has the thought crossed your mind, "what if I were to miss the rapture?" Now, I know I am not going to miss it - but if I were one who did, knowing what I know about the Tribulation from the book of Revelation....I would be really tempted to take my own life or pack up all my things and head for Alaska or some place remote. I would be really scared, that's for sure.

Yet, there are people all over this world that are about to blindly walk off the edge of a huge cliff and fall into Hell. It's scary. And there is so much deception in the world that people never want to talk about God anymore because "He is some kind of a grumpy ogre that just wants to bop people on the head everytime they make a mistake".

Yes, God is going to judge the earth and many evil, horrible things are coming, but it is in His mercy that He is trying to get these people to repent and be saved. God knows this life is short and it would be better to have some pain here in this life if it means being saved from the Hell in the next life. People have a tendancy to only ask for God to save them when they are down in a fox hole. Well this whole world is going down into a fox hole so that many will come out of it saved and on their way to Heaven. The Tribulation is God's mercy to all mankind.

I don't know if there will be a second rapture, aka: pre-wrath rapture. I don't see anywhere where it says "come up hither" to the tribulation saints. Maybe God will plainly reveal to the Trib saints if there is a second rapture... but why would he tell US this? I mean why let the sinner know he might have just one more chance - when God says that "today is the day of salvation"? Even if there is a second rapture - there is even a better chance they will die before they see it.

In Revelation the great multitude in Heaven that can not be numbered, could very well be saints that will die in the Tribulation. I just don't see another rapture. I think they will most likely die because of the many severe judgements that are coming. But this is really not my concern anyway. I am going in the first (maybe only) rapture. The rapture itself is a specail blessing for us who believed and did not see. "Blessed are those who have believed and not seen" We are that group now. The rapture is our blessed hope. After the rapture, they will be like Thomas who had to put his fingers in the holes of Jesus hands.

Today is the day of salvation. I don't think it is wise to tell people there might be a second chance, because you just never know. We aren't promised the next breath. The Tribulation is going to be HORRIBLE to say the very least. So bad, that I saw a movie about the rapture where when everyone was taken and the preacher of the church was left behind, he shot himself. I can understand that. Anyone who has read Revelation should be able to understand that!

Anyway, let's keep warning who ever we get a chance to warn. Not only do people need to be warned of Hell now, but warned of the coming Tribulation.
God Bless all my fellow Watchers, Lorie

Look, I tell you a mystery: we will not all die, but we will be changed ~ in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed!

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to YOU, unless one is born again, he CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God." Then He said, "Most assuredly, I say to YOU, unless one is born of water and SPIRIT, he CANNOT ENTER the kingdom of God."

John 3:3-5

I don't know if there will be a second rapture, aka: pre-wrath rapture.

My reply, Proof of 2 Raptures

The image of the body of a man is used in Daniel to depict world empires, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome (1st leg) and Ecclesiastic Rome (2nd leg). The feet depict our times. The 1st foot, attached to the symbol of Rome, stands for political leadership, untimately the UN (United Nations) or OWG (One World Government). The 2nd foot, attached to the symbol of Ecclesiastic Rome, stands for world religious leadership, ultimately the UR (United Religions) headed up by the Pope.

Except for the 1st, Babel, the "base" (Zech. 5:11) of both the political and ecclesiastical kingdoms, the above empires and their kings are also depicted as heads of the great red dragon (Rev. 12, 13, 17). Instead of the feet being symbolic, the tail of the great red dragon is used. It represents Satan, who inhabits the body of the 7th head, making the False Prophet both man and Satan, the latter of the 2 sons of perdition. Judas Iscariot was the 1st and only other son of perdition.

In opposition, the saints are depicted by the body of a man, the Body of Christ. Jesus is the head. He was born into a new world (Heaven) on Ascension Day, 30 AD. The torso seems to be the Old Testament saints. The 2 legs represent the split between the Catholics and Protestants. All the saints down to the feet are asleep in Jesus, awaiting their Day of Redemption. The feet represent our days, when living saints are to born into a new world on their Day of Redemption. One foot seems to represent the Bride of Christ, the Church saints. The other foot represents the Tribulation saints.

There is a Rapture for the 1st foot, the Bride of Christ, and a Rapture for the 2nd foot, the Tribulation saints. One foot is born into the new world (Heaven) a little before the other. One foot is born into a new world (Heaven) at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The other foot is born into this new world at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

There are 2 trumps of God, 2 times that a foot of the Body of Christ is called up to Heaven. The first foot is born into the new world a little ahead of the last foot.

The 1st Rapture is in I Thess. 4:16:17. Verse 16 mentions "the trump of God." It is the first trump. The last Rapture is in I Cor. 15:51,52. Verse 52 tells us it is "the last trump."

First trump, first foot, first Rapture. 1Th. 4:16,17 says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Last trump, last foot, last Rapture. 1Co 15:51-53 says, "I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (Paul included) shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." The immortality promised us becomes reality on the day of the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant" (Heb. 12:23-25). "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb 11:40).

The 2 trumps of God are typified in Nu. 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them (both) for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps (plural). And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (elders, 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

We know that when the 1st trumpet sounds, Christ will say, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1). Immediately afterward, the 24 elders, including John, are seen in Heaven. This ties in with "one trumpet" of Nu. 10. At that time, the "princes,which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." The 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles (including John) are seen seated on thrones with crowns on their heads in Rev. 4:4.

On the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, BOTH trumps will sound. At the 2nd blowing of the 1st trump, the Lord "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other" (Mt. 24:31). Those gathered from the far reaches of Heaven to the general assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23) are the Bride saints that were caught up previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Then the 2nd trump sounds to gather the Tribulation saints from the Earth to the general assembly in Heaven. That is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Bride saints caught up before the Tribulation began).

The 24 elders (all Israelites) and the other saints of the 1st Rapture are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9,10. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They say, thou "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." These saints are in Heaven before the 1st seal on the Title Deed of the Earth is broken.

The Tribulation saints are seen in Heaven between the breaking of the 6th seal (Rev. 6:12) and the 7th seal (Rev. 8). The 144,000 Israelites plus a great multitide are caught up to Heaven at the LAST TRUMP. Rev. 7:9,14 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne (IN HEAVEN), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Agape

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