Pro and Con 944

Posted 9-3-02

The Bulge on the Southern Wall of the Temple Mount Becomes Larger

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/News/20020829.htm Archaeologists Say that the Southern Wall Will Soon Collapse Together with the Mosque
The Temple Mount Faithful to Sharon: Let it collapse! This is the Hand of G-d!

On 27 August 2002, the archaeologists of the Israeli Antiquities Authority warned that the southern wall of the Temple Mount is in great imminent danger of collapsing. They stated that the bulge in the wall has become much larger. Last year the bulge was 70 cm [2.25 feet] and was 30 meters [98 feet] long. The bulge has now increased to over one meter [3 feet] and is much longer. The bulge was first noticed after Tisha bAv last year immediately after the Temple Mount Faithful had carried the cornerstone for the Third Temple to the area in front of the southern wall of the Temple Mount. The archaeologists also stated that if the wall collapses, the Al Aqsa mosque will collapse together with it....

The Temple Mount and the southern wall. The insert indicates the location of the bulge on the southern wall which is between the Double Gate and the Triple Gate. The insert also shows a portion of the bulge. The indicator in the middle shows the Dome of the Rock which is site of the First, Second and Third Temples. The indicator to the left of the picture shows the Western Wall plaza....

Saturday, 24 August 2002, the anti-Israeli Islamic Movement in Israel brought 45,000 of its members to the Temple Mount and held a demonstration against the G-d and people of Israel. The Temple Mount Faithful Movement sent a message of protest to the Israeli authorities and asked them why they did not prevent this demonstration which again desecrated the holy site of the G-d of Israel. During the demonstration they incited the Arabs against the Israeli sovereignty on the Temple Mount and in Jerusalem and the land of Israel. They stated that the land of Israel is "Palestine" and that there is no place for the Jews on the Temple Mount or in Jerusalem and all of the land of Israel. They denied that the Temple Mount had been the site of the First and Second Temples and the godly historical heart and soul of the G-d and people of Israel. It was a terrible revolt by the followers of Yasser Arafat, the enemies of the G-d and people of Israel on the Temple Mount, against G-d and the eternal covenant that He made with Abraham and Israel when He gave the land of Israel to His people Israel only and gave them the Temple Mount and Jerusalem where they were to build His house. It was a rude lie against the history of the relationship and long link between G-d, Israel and the Holy Land; a history of thousands of years of the people of Israel who lived in this land since the time of Abraham and King David and built it to be the land of the G-d and people of Israel. The reaction of G-d came immediately. On the next day the archaeologists discovered that the size of the bulge had increased. This was again an immediate sign of the Hand of G-d and His judgement....

Collapse of Jerusalem Wall Could Inflame Muslim World

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200208/FOR20020830e.html By Julie Stahl CNSNews.com Jerusalem Bureau Chief August 30, 2002 Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - The collapse of a bulging wall surrounding Jerusalem's Old City could spark Islamic violence from Cameroon to Indonesia, an Israeli expert said here on Friday.... Israeli archaeologists and Jerusalem's mayor warned this week that the giant stones in the upper portion of the wall are in imminent danger of toppling and crushing worshippers below if the wall is not repaired soon. But Muslim authorities are refusing to allow any work to be done.... It protrudes some 70 centimeters (nearly 30 inches) beyond the plane of the wall over a 2,000 square foot area. Although it is currently covered by scaffolding, the bulge is visible at a distance to the naked eye.

Incoming email

Click here:
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2002/ronr92.htm

---
"Will the Rapture be in the Fall of 2002?" Ron Reese (2 Sep 2002)

...Consider this: If the famine week, the time of Jacob's Trouble, actually began on Sept. 28- 29, 2000, Roshashana, then we are about to complete TWO YEARS of the famine week. How long was it before Joseph (Jesus) made himself known unto his brethren? TWO YEARS!!! (Genesis 45:6) After TWO YEARS OF THE FAMINE WEEK, JOSEPH MADE HIMSELF KNOW UNTO THE BRETHREN!!! IS THIS A TYPE OF THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, WHERE JESUS MAKES HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO HIS BRETHREN??? Will the 2 years be up on Sept. 6, 2002--Roshashana--Feast of Trumpets?...

Breakthrough Effort Authenticate The Shroud

By Randy Boswell
http://www.rense.com/general28/breaktr.htm
The Ottawa Citizen and Citizen News Services

8-30-2 The Ohio woman who appears to have discovered a critical flaw in the 1988 carbon dating of cloth samples from the Shroud of Turin says her insights into the controversial Christian relic were communicated to her by Jesus Christ himself....

"I was working at my computer when a voice told me to go watch TV," said Ms. Benford, 45, who began flipping channels until she happened upon a show about the Shroud of Turin. "I was just stunned," she said, because she instantly recognized that the face on the shroud belonged to the same man whose voice had instructed her to watch television, and which later explained to her why scientists had mistakenly concluded the shroud was a fake. "I don't want to sound like a nut case, but that's what happened," she said. "I was given the answer."...

Space Station Supernova

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28aug_sunrise.htm?list666710
...sky watchers in many US cities can see the space station materialize like a supernova in the early morning sky before sunrise....

A few hundred kilometers below the space station, sky watchers on Earth could have something nearly as wonderful: a bright star materializing like a supernova in the predawn sky. That's what the ISS looks like (from the ground) when it's hit by rays from the morning Sun. It happens often enough, but most people have never seen it because they don't know when to look.

The first week of Sept. is a good time to try. That's when the ISS will fly over several major US cities before dawn, and if you're outside at the right moment you can spot a "space station supernova." You'll have to wake up early, around 5 o'clock in the morning. At first the starry predawn sky will seem ordinary. The horizon will glow a bit (a hint of the rising Sun) and the yellow-planet Saturn might catch your eye halfway up the eastern sky. Then the space station will appear, gliding eastward into the sunlight high above Earth. It will surge in brightness until it rivals or outshines every other star in the sky.

My comments

This week ends Sept. 7, the Feast of Trumpets. At the present time, Saturn is a morning star. I think that's perfect for the Rapture. In Rev 2:28, Jesus said, "I will give him the morning star." Rev 22:16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." In 2:28, Christ can't be the morning star. Overcomers already have Christ in them. In 22:16, Christ is the morning star. What are overcomers to be given? Heaven, the morning star where the Morning Star's throne is located.

Gemini, the constellation associated with Benjamin (which means son of the right hand, suggesting Christ), is a picture of the Bride and Bridegroom sitting on the ecliptic in heavenly places. Eph 1:20 says, "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES." Eph 2:6 says, "And hath raised us up together (at the Rapture), and made us sit together IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus." The Bride and Bridegroom of Gemini portrays our sitting together with Christ in Heaven.

Luke 21:25 says that there will be signs "in the stars (lit., constellations)." On Sept. 6, 2002, Saturn will be near the border of Taurus and Gemini. That seems significant, even more so when we remember that Saturn will occult the king star, Regulus, in Leo the lion on Sept. 13, 2007. I think that will be Christ's Coronation day. It is Tishri 1, 5768, the Feast of Trumpets. That seems to be the Day of God, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.


Sky over Jerusalem on 9-6-02. Left to right are Venus, Mercury, Sun, Mars, Moon, Jupiter and Saturn, which seems to be flying between Auriga (the good shepherd, on the north) and Orion (the mighty warrior who wins over Satan, on the south), both symbols of Christ in the gospel of the stars.


Sky on 9-13-07.
The space between Saturn in Gemini and in Leo seems to represent the Tribulation years.

New virus alert from Jim Bramlett

Sep 1, 2002 - This morning I had 16 incoming messages with a virus I had never heard of before: W32.yaha.F@mm.

Thankfully, my anti-virus software detected, blocked and deleted all of them.

If you have not done so lately, I strongly suggest you get an anti-virus update.

Incoming email, Re: partial rapture

Just to start off with, I also before ever reading your website came to the conclusion that there are going to be 2 raptures. The reason is b/c in seal 5 the martyrs SOULS are under the altar and then later they are seen STANDING before the throne of God, implying to me that they have now received their bodies once the number of their fellow brethren were killed as they were=Time of the Gentiles has come in. Because next the focus is on Israel and the sealing of the 144,000.

The thing that I disagree on is the "partial" rapture (pre-trib) for only the righteous, and here is why:

In reference to the many people who post info regarding a "partial" rapture, please consider the following: You cannot use parables given by Jesus in the dispensation of the kingdom being offered to the Jews before they refused Him and try to apply any of it to the dispensation of the church when for the first time through Paul the concept of the rapture is revealed.

Using the 10 virgins (5 foolish/5 wise) parable it must first be understood that this was given by Jesus when the kingdom gospel was being preached and the rapture was not yet revealed to Paul. Firstly, there are 10 virgins and 1 bridegroom, this cannot be the bride because it would constitute poligamy. The 10 virgins are bridesmaids, not the bride. They are on the way to the wedding feast. Jesus instructs the foolish ones to buy some more oil. If they are left behind in the trib and have to buy oil then they are in trouble b/c in order to do so, they would have to take the mark of the beast in order to buy/sell.

Jesus was always telling them to be ready b/c He will come again (2nd coming) at a time when they were not aware. If you rightly divide the word, you will notice that only in the gospels (given to the Jews because the offer of the kingdom still stood, they had not yet rejected Jesus yet) are they told to Watch for Him b/c they would not know when He was coming. However, in the Pauline epistles (written to the church) we are told that we would know the season.

Also, when Christ died on the cross for us in 31 AD, how many of our sins were yet future? All of them so this concept that once you are saved you have to ask for forgiveness is correct in the sense of our being intimate with Him but has no bearing on our salvation.

Mat 24 or the Olivet Discourse people try to use for the rapture when it speaks of one taken, one left. Again, this is referring to the sheep/goats judgement and not the rapture. The concept hadn't been revealed by Paul yet.

What about the thief next to Jesus who He tells will join Him in paradise that day? He didn't say anything about being tried first b/c he didn't have enough oil. For that matter, what about those who at the rapture are already deceased? Will only the ones who died having enough oil be the ones resurrected in the pre-trib rapture and the carnal ones later at the pre-wrath one?

What about the workers in the field who had just gotten hired at the end of the day and get the same wages as those who worked a full day? Jesus said that basically it is not for us to decide using our fleshy natures who is "righteous" enough to be raptured and who is not. I don't think the church fully appreciates our imputed righteousness with Christ. Sure, we should live by the spirit and not the flesh but those who don't and are carnal, will suffer lost of rewards (type of crown they recieve).

In the Scriptures it also speaks about how God started something in the spirit when we were saved and we cannot finish or perfect what He started in the spirit by using the flesh and that santicification comes by the Holy Spirit, not us.

Also, some speak of Phil 3:14 where Paul is speaking of running a race and not becoming a "castaway." Others speculate if he is talking about being in the pre-trib rapture or being castaway. Not so, right in the passage it says what he is running the race for; an incorruptible crown=Rewards based on works.

Some speak of the Mt 7:22-23 passage regarding those who say, "Lord, Lord..." this is speaking again about entering the earthly kingdom and those crying out are people who exhibited the gifts of the Spirit (abused them) and did not show forth fruit of the spirit (love, peace ,joy etc...). We are called not to be gift inspectors but fruit inspectors. Basically on the outside they LOOKED and SPOKE like Christians but inside were not.

This leads me to the Church at Laodicea. If you read the letter carefully, notice that they are not washed in the blood of JESUS. This doesn't mean they go through the trib and spill their own blood. They will do this but to be washed in Jesus's blood=saved. Meaning on the outside they appear to be saved and say the right things but they are truely not. They have to BE Washed implying that they were not already. Remember that in the latter days, the tares would be in with the wheat and hard to differencite the two=need for discernment, not judgement. Also, look where Jesus is in reference to their hearts-->OUTSIDE. He tells them that he is knocking and if they will come and open to them, He will come and SUP with them=they will attend the weddding feast. He does not say that He will come MARRY them, no, jsut sup which means eat with them.

My reply

> > there are going to be 2 raptures. The reason is b/c in seal 5 the martyrs SOULS are under the altar and then later they are seen STANDING before the throne of God

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I hadn't thought about the significance of this.

> > The thing that I disagree on is the "partial" rapture (pre-trib) for only the righteous, and here is why: > > In reference to the many people who post info regarding a "partial" rapture, please consider the following: You cannot use parables given by Jesus in the dispensation of the kingdom being offered to the Jews before they refused Him and try to apply any of it to the dispensation of the church when for the first time through Paul the concept of the rapture is revealed.

It is my understanding that the Dispensation of the Kingdom is the millennial Day of the Lord when Christ is king. Christ as king was offered on Palm Sunday and refused by the Pharisees. I think the Dispensation of the Church began on the following Pentecoat. However, there is another wheel of time that marks off the 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, when God dealt with all mankind, the Age of the Jews, when God dealt mainly with the Jews, and the Age of the Church, when God deals mainly with the Church. It looks like the 3rd age began when the wise men brought kingly gifts to Jesus.

The teachings of Jesus, whether by statement or parables, may concern the end of the Age of the Church. which runs at the same time as the end of the other ages. To Jews, that trial is the 70th week of Daniel 9:27. To the Church, that trial that will come upon the whole world is the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10). The same trial will come upon the other Gentiles too.

The Pre-incarnate Christ is "the "redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts" in Isa. 44:6. He gave Isaiah information concerning the Pre-Trib Rapture. It was not understood and was a mystery until Paul made it clear. Nevertheless, the Rapture was taught in the Old Testament.

Isa 57:1-3 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, vanishes, i.e., is Raptured before the Tribulation), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (acaph, gathered, withdrawn, removed, evacuated, i.e., raptured), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY (acaph, removed) FROM THE EVIL TO COME (the Tribulation). He (the 'righteous') shall enter into peace (in Heaven): they shall rest in their beds (Psa. 149:5 says, 'Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds'), each one (righteous saint) walking in his UPRIGHTNESS. But draw near hither (at the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Tribulation is near), ye sons of the sorceress (Jezebel, Rev. 2:20), the seed of the adulterer (the Pope who will join Christianity and pagan religions together in the United Religions) and the whore" (the harlot church of Rev. 17 and 18). The "RIGHTEOUS" are taken away FROM the evil trial that is to come upon the whole world in both Isa. 57:1-3 and Rev. 3:10.

In 30 AD, Jesus gave instructions directly and by parables that applied to the end times. In Mt. 24:3, the disciples asked him "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world (aionos, age)? That did not apply to them in 30 AD. The last day covered through Mt. 24:31 concerns the Day of God, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. That is the day that all the saints are gathered from both Heaven and Earth (Mark 13:27) to the general assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). Those saints left behind at the Pre-Trib Rapture will be caught up on that Day of God.

2Pe 3:12 speaks of that day too. It says, "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the DAY OF GOD, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?".

Only the righteous are caught up in either Rapture. The wise virgins the 1st time, those that had washed their robes in the blood of Christ to make them white the 2nd time (Rev. 7:14).

Heb 12:14 says, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

Rev 21:27 says, "And there shall in no wise enter into it (heavenly New Jerusalem) any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

> > there are 10 virgins and 1 bridegroom, this cannot be the bride because it would constitute poligamy. The 10 virgins are bridesmaids, not the bride.

All of Israel was espoused to the Lord at Sinai. Jer 31:31,32 says, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I WAS AN HUSBAND UNTO THEM, SAITH THE LORD."

In 2Co 11:2, Paul told the Corinthians, "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you (Corinthians) as (symbolic language) a chaste VIRGIN to Christ." If the Corinthian believers can be counted as a chaste virgin, the wise virgins of Mt. 15 are also Chaste virgins. Rom 12:5 says, "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

> > Jesus instructs the foolish ones to buy some more oil. If they are left behind in the trib and have to buy oil then they are in trouble b/c in order to do so, they would have to take the mark of the beast in order to buy/sell.

They can't buy this oil (symbol of the Holy Spirit) in the marketplace. They have to get right with God by confessing their sins (I John 1:9). Then the Holy Spirit will well up in them like a fountain of living waters.

> > notice that only in the gospels (given to the Jews because the offer of the kingdom still stood, they had not yet rejected Jesus yet) are they told to Watch for Him b/c they would not know when He was coming.

Rev. 3:3 says to the churches, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not WATCH, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." We are all to watch. 1Th 5:6 says, "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober."

> > Also, when Christ died on the cross for us in 31 AD, how many of our sins were yet future? All of them so this concept that once you are saved you have to ask for forgiveness is correct in the sense of our being intimate with Him but has no bearing on our salvation.

The 40 years of the iniquity of Judah (Eze. 4:6) fits from 30 AD to 70 AD.

When we accept Christ, every "OLD" sin (II Pet. 1:9) is wiped off the books. Any sins after we accept Christ need to be confessed, so Jesus can wash our feet. Then, as he told Peter, we will be clean every whit. In Joh 13:10, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean."

> > Mat 24 or the Olivet Discourse people try to use for the rapture when it speaks of one taken, one left. Again, this is referring to the sheep/goats judgement and not the rapture. The concept hadn't been revealed by Paul yet.

This is not the Judgment of the Nations (the sheep/goats judgement). That is after the Second Advent. Mt. 25:31f says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory...before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."

Your statement, "The concept hadn't been revealed by Paul yet," is like putting on blinders. The Lord himself revealed things concerning the end of this age in the Old Testament and through out the New Testament.

All Scripture is especially written for us. 1Co 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE WORLD (AIONOS, AGES) ARE COME."

> > What about the thief next to Jesus who He tells will join Him in paradise that day? He didn't say anything about being tried first b/c he didn't have enough oil.

The thief was righteous, because he had not committed any sin after believing in Christ. His sins were washed away the moment he believed.

> > For that matter, what about those who at the rapture are already deceased? Will only the ones who died having enough oil be the ones resurrected in the pre-trib rapture and the carnal ones later at the pre-wrath one?

Probably, but the Lord is the judge, not me.

> > What about the workers in the field who had just gotten hired at the end of the day and get the same wages as those who worked a full day?

That wage represents Salvation. Those workers who are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture receive Salvation. Those workers caught up at the Pre-Wrath Rapture receive Salvation. Any difference has to do with rewards, not Salvation.

> > Jesus said that basically it is not for us to decide using our fleshy natures who is "righteous" enough to be raptured and who is not.

The final judge is Christ.

> > Also, some speak of Phil 3:14 where Paul is speaking of running a race and not becoming a "castaway." Others speculate if he is talking about being in the pre-trib rapture or being castaway. Not so, right in the passage it says what he is running the race for; an incorruptible crown=Rewards based on works.

Paul is speaking of the Rapture, not rewards that will be handed out at the Judgment Seat of Christ on the Day of God that begins the Millennium. In Phi 3:14, Paul said, "I press toward the mark for THE PRIZE of the high calling of God (the 'Come up hither' at the Pre-Trib Rapture) in Christ Jesus."

> > the Church at Laodicea. If you read the letter carefully, notice that they are not washed in the blood of JESUS

It doesn't mention the blood in the message to the Philadelphians, either, yet they are blood-bought. The blood is mentioned in Rev. 1:5.

The first chapter of Rev. is the Preview of the Rapture of Rev. 4:1. In the Introduction to this miracle play, John said, "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own BLOOD" (Rev 1:5). All true members of the Church have been washed in the blood of Christ.

This includes the Laodiceans, because they have to be in Christ to be "emesai," vomited, out of his mouth. They are not assimilated into the Body of Christ. They are still in the stomach and can be spued out. They need white robes of righteousness. Their robes are spotted by the flesh. Therefore, by the 2nd Rapture, we see that they have washed their robes in the blood of Christ to make them white (Rev. 7:14).

The unwise servant is the foolish virgin. Luk 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him asunder), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 speaks of the same thing and time. It adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mt. 22:1-14 tells about the foolish virgin. Jesus saw him at the wedding feast and said, "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" The foolish one was cast out into the darkness outside the door of Heaven (Rev. 4:1), and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." Right after the Pre-Trib Rapture, those with Christ in Rev. 17:14 are "called, and chosen, and faithful."

> > He does not say that He will come MARRY them, no, jsut sup which means eat with them.

Of the 2nd Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites are added to the Bride group (Rev. 14:4,5). They, all 144,000, are virgins that are without fault before the Lamb of God. That leaves out of the Marriage of the Lamb the great multitude that no man can number of Rev. 7:9. Agape

Petra's Great Temple rises again 2,000 years later

By Kristen Gillespie
http://www.jordantimes.com/thu/homenews/homenews8.htm
AMMAN When a massive earthquake in 363 AD broke apart and buried at least half of the city of Petra under rubble, remnants of the Nabataean civilisation disappeared, but others froze in time to be uncovered centuries later....

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From: Robert Harris, MidntMinistries@aol.com

mjagee wrote:
> > > Rev 3:10,11 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (ek, 'OUT OF,' as in Rev. 5:9) the hour of temptation,

The hour of test is much later in the Tribulation when a time of trouble envelopes the Earth like there never was before, neither shall be again. In the early Tribulation all things are normal. In other words, the Day of the Lord, which is the Tribulation period, begins in very normal times of the days of Noah. And this is why the Day of the Lord will overtake the world unawares.

Actually, all seven of the churches are warned, one way or another, to repent (the exception being Smyrna & Philadelphia), lest they suffer the consequences of not being right at Christ's return. So Philadelphia has the promise of escaping, not all of the Church--Indeed, only a few in Sardis will walk with Christ in white.

I see you quoted Revelation 4; actually, the time line of the seals being opened are within the Day of the Lord--and this is why John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10)! In fact, the whole exegetical consensus of Revelation chapter one is the Lord's Day, wherein Christ is dressed as our High priest walking in judgment of the churches. Indeed, the Day of our Redemption must begin before we are saved at His return. That's right, the Day of the Lord must first begin before we go to Heaven; and to initiate the day of the Lord--the Antichrist must be first revealed---"Let no man deceive you by any means" (2 Thess. 2:3)! No, Marilyn, Christians aren't going to Heaven before the Day of our Redemption (Eph. 4:30)--before the Tribulation--it's impossible! thus, we are to watch in the night just as the Roman soldiers took their post to watch (Mark 13:34).

and take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so That Day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch you therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:34-36)
God Bless! www.midnightministries.com

My reply

> > I see you quoted Revelation 4; actually, the time line of the seals being opened are within the Day of the Lord--and this is why John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10)!

The Greek for "Lord's day" in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1 is not used anywhere else. It is not the millennial Day of the Lord. That can't come until after Elijah returns. Mal 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful DAY OF THE LORD."

The millennial Day of the Lord will come with the Day of Destruction, the Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 38:13-20), the time of Jacob's trouble, the Day of the Trumpet and alarm (Joel 2:1). At that time (when the False Prophet will come to his end, Dan. 11:45), "there shall be a TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time (this time of Jacob's trouble is like no other day--ever): and AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Dan. 12:1,2).

Jer 30:7 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." The time of Jacob's trouble is one literal day.

This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints. It takes place between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 6:12; 7:14; 8:1).

> > the Day of the Lord must first begin before we go to Heaven; and to initiate the day of the Lord--the Antichrist must be first revealed

You must misunderstand II Thess. 2:1-8. Many do, because the KJV says that "the day of Christ is at hand." All the major MSS say Day of the Lord (also see RSV, ASV, BBE, DARBY, WEYMOUTH).

The KJV says, "Now we beseech you, brethren (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and by our (Paul and other believers') gathering together unto him (at the Rapture),That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Day of the Lord) is at hand. (It isn't at hand until the end of the shortened Great Tribulation.) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY (he apostasia, THE DEPARTURE, i.e., the Rapture; as in apostacion, divorcement, when one person leaves) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (SECOND), the son of perdition (the Satan-possessed False Prophet); Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (Mid-Trib). Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (the Holy Spirit in believers, the salt of the Earth) that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time (kairos, set, proper time, i.e., the Tribulation). For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (the Holy Spirit) who now letteth will let, until he be taken (ginomai, arise) out of the way (at the Rapture). And then shall that Wicked (False Prophet) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

He apostasia was translated as "the departure" in early Bibles, including Tyndales, Cranmer's, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's and the Coverdale Bible. II Thess. 2:3 (World English Bible, WEB) says, "Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE comes first, and the man of sin is revealed (second), the son of destruction."

I am waiting for The Departure, not the revealing of the son of destruction or the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints. The 1st Departure takes place before the first seal of the Title Deed of the Earth is broken (Rev. 4:1; 5:9; 6:1f).

I am praying that I will be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all the things of the Tribulation by being caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

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