Pro and Con 946

Posted 9-5-02

EU foreign ministers back 'road-map' for Palestinian state

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=203468

European Union foreign ministers Saturday endorsed a "road-map" drawn up by EU president Denmark for establishing peace in the Middle East.

Meeting in the Danish seaside town of Elsinore, the 15 ministers backed a three-stage plan which envisages the creation of an independent Palestinian state in June 2005, with the full consent of Israel and moderate Arab states.

"The aim is the creation of a Palestinian state on the basis of the borders of 1967," said French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin...

The plan incorporates elements of ideas already put forward by the United States, Germany, France and Arab states.

The first phase of the road map would cover the period up to Palestinian elections in early 2003.

It would bring an Israeli-Palestinian security agreement, with a restructured Palestinian security service and a gradual Israeli withdrawal from reoccupied Palestinian-controlled Area A.

The second phase would last until the establishment of a Palestinian state with provisional borders by August 2003.

This stage would require the formation of a Palestinian Authority with new legitimacy, drafting of a new constitution and negotiations on a state with provisional borders with the Quartet and the three moderate Arab states as facilitators.

The final, longer phase would end with the establishment of a final Palestinian state in June 2005. During this period negotiations on permanent status issues - Jerusalem, borders, settlements and refugees - would begin.

Sharon: Deal with Palestinians possible

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-05-israel_x.htm
...He said the EU concept is to combine all the plans now on the table and present a unified program to the "quartet" dealing with the Mideast: the United States, Russia, EU and United Nations. ...

Israel expels 2 W. Bankers to Gaza; Sharon rejects EU peace plan

http://www.jordantimes.com/Thu/news/news1.htm

9-5-02...Sharon dismissed the plan's calendar for the creation of a Palestinian state "within three years from today as not realistic," the official said....

For his part, Arafat on Tuesday endorsed the EU plan during his meeting with Moeller in the West Bank town of Ramallah....

Israeli Prime Minister sees opening for Mid-east deal

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2002/9/5/latest/7252IsraeliPr&sec=latest

JERUSALEM (AP) Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says that for the first time in nearly two years of fighting, he sees the possibility of a negotiated deal with the Palestinians because many of them are souring on violence....

Incoming email

Thank you again for all of our previous correspondence, you have been so helpful.

Now, I have read this over and over and I am still a little confused. I have been going over your Pro/Cons, and I came to this in #688 (and it is posted elsewhere as well), and I just don't understand it. Here it is again so you can see what I am refering to:

"Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, West Bank) in the Six-Day War of 1967 and fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. One generation from then, the things in Mt. 24:27-31 will come true. We know a generation is 40 years. In 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did, 40 years later, in 70 AD. Adding 40 years to 1967 brings us to 2007.

We can tell from Joel 1:14; 2:1-3, and many other scriptures, that this age will end and the millennial Day of the Lord begin on the Feast of Trumpets. In 2007, that is the Jewish Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). We can tell from Dan. 8:13,14 that the shortened Tribulation will be 2300 days. If we count the 2300 days backward from Tishri 1, 5768, by Jewish inclusive reckoning, we find that the Tribulation could very well begin May 28, 2001, which is Sivan 6, 5761, Pentecost.

Actually, when you count the years and the extra days (by Jewish inclusive reckoning) from when Jesus presented himself as King on Palm Sunday to Av 10 in 70 AD, when the temple was burned, you get 40 years plus another 120 days. In our days, from June 7, 1967, when the temple area was regained, to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), when Jesus Christ will be crowned in Heaven, is 40 years plus another 120 days. It is a mirror image.

The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. Add 7 good years and 7 bad years (as when Joseph was in Egypt) and you get Sept. 13, 2007. The Accords were ratified 3 days later in Israel on Tishri 1, 5754. Adding the 7 good years and 7 bad years brings us to Tishri 1, 5768, which just happens to be Sept. 13, 2007. This smacks of God's planning, don't you think"
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Ok, here is where the difficulty lies for me. I thought the tribulation was 7 years long. If it begins on May 28, 2001, wouldn't that mean that it ends on aprox. May 28, 2008? I don't even know if I am asking this the way I want to, so as to end my confusion!!! Help! Because it seems to me that June 1967 plus 40 years, plus 120 days would equal = October 2007 but when you minus from that the date of the rapture May 28, 2001 = 6 years and this is why I don't understand how the tribulation is 7 years, but adds up to 6 this way? Please, if you have a chart to explain this that would be sooo helpful! Please make it very simple for us simple people! (I'm sorry if somehow I missed this explaination somewhere else... I have been reading alot of the older pro/cons looking for the answer)

I want to share a piece of my testimony with you... Every 7 years of my life is marked by an event with God. When I was 7 y.o. I asked Jesus into my heart ( I believed in Jesus, but it was not clear to me what salvation was at that time)... When I was 14 y.o. I know I was born-again, and I saw light fill me from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, in the spirit - it is hard to explain since I don't understand it myself. But I think I saw my spirit get "reborn". The light was an incredibly intense feeling of God's love...hard to explain in words how wonderful it felt and how it made me feel a heavy compassion for the lost and love for others...

I was also water baptised that year, and that was an amazing blessing... I was not raised in church so I did backslide alot during the next 6 years, then in my 21st year I rededicated my life to God and was baptised in the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Now, I have seen the pattern in my life ( I believe God showed me this pattern) and I have known for the last 7 years that something specail would happen in my 28th year, which I am 28 now, and will be until October 2001. I pray this is the year I go to meet the Lord Jesus in the Rapture. I have never been able to envision my life past 28, but we will just have to see. I am searching the scriptures and the news and reading your site daily. What a blessing God has let come to us thru your intense study of God's word. I haven't found a prophesy site yet that is as helpful and indepth as yours... Agape to you and your family, Lorie

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

Remember that the latter half of the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, is to be shortened for the elect's sake (Mt. 24:21,22). The Tribulation will be something less than 7 years.

We are already past Pentecost, May 31, 2001, when I thought the Tribulation would start. The last half, called the Great Tribulation, is the part that is to be shortened. I thought the whole shortened Tribulation would be 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14), but that doesn't seem possible now. Maybe that passage does belong to the past, as some think.

Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) seems to be the end of the generation that started when the Sign of the End of the Age appeared in 1967. That's when Israel regained the temple area in the Six-Day War and fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. Tishri 1, 5768 also seems to be the end of the 7 bad years since the Oslo Accords were ratified on Tishri 1, 5754. 5754 + 7 good years = 5761 If we add the 7 bad years to 5761, we get 5768. Tishri 1, 5768 is Sept. 13, 2007, so that date seems right for the Day of God's Wrath.

If the Rapture is on the Eve of Trumpets, Sept. 6, 2002, or on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 7, the Tribulation might start on Tishri 1, 5763, our Sept. 7, 2002, and run to Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). If so, the Day of God's Wrath would be 5 years after the Pre-Trib Rapture. Just before the wrath hits Earth, the Tribulation saints would be caught up to Heaven.

Jacob's escape is a type of the Pre-Trib Rapture, hopefully September 6, 2002, on the Eve of Trumpets. Jacob/Israel was taken to Joseph (type of Christ)in Joseph's vehicles when there were yet 5 more bad years. JACOB WENT TO EGYPT IN THE 2ND BAD YEAR. "For these two years (i.e., 2001 and 2002) hath the famine been in the land (bad years): and yet there are five years (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007), in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, AND to save your lives by A GREAT DELIVERANCE" (pleytah, ESCAPE, as in the YLT) (Gen 45:6,7).

The 40 years plus another 120 days correlation was probably on the 5 Doves site as well as on my site. I didn't find that myself. It seems like it was Eric Casagrande that figured that out.

On Nisan 8, in 30 AD, Jesus arrived in Bethany the day before he presented himself as King on Palm Sunday. He was rejected. Forty years from 30 AD is 70 AD. Figuring the extra 120 days by Jewish inclusive reckoning, start with Nisan 8. Call it day #1. The 120th day will fall on Av 10, when the temple proper was burned twice--Solomon's and Herod's temples.

Av 10 is when the Jews LOST their temple in 70 AD. Iyar 28, 5767 (June 7, 1967) is when the Jews REGAINED the temple area. Counting that day as Day #1, the modern 120 days will end on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). In both instances, add 40 years, then add another 120 days. The correlation seems good. Like the end of the 7th bad year, this correlation also ends on Sept. 13, 2007.

> > I think I saw my spirit get "reborn". The light was an incredibly intense feeling of God's love...hard to explain in words how wonderful it felt

I didn't see light, but I felt the incredible warmth and love when I was filled with the Spirit of Christ too. Our daughter felt it as incredible happiness, beyond anything she had ever felt before. She said, "Thank God I didn't have to write a book." I was always writing a book.

Our son felt the infilling of the Spirit of Christ as happiness too. Carol walked in when David and I were sitting across the kitchen table with all of our bent fingers hooked together. Somehow she knew that what had happened to her was now happening to Dave. She said, "Thank God I didn't have to die." She had prayed for her brother to find what she did, even if she had to die. In our own ways, at that point in time, we all had come to the point of giving ourselves and our lives 100% to Christ.

Here is an e-mail I received from Christopher in Sweden as he was being filled with the Spirit of Christ. He didn't know exactly how to describe it. His first e-mail, my reply, and his e-mail below are on Pro and Con 76.

"After reading your reply i must admit i was a litte confused, so i read it again and it all seemed to make sense.I accept Jesus and God, as i am writing this a strange feeling of happiness or something is coming over me, cold yet warm, nice.I want to laugh but somehow i also want to cry.I thank you as much as i can for taking the time to write down the passages and answering my letter and if you ever come to Sweden you are more than welcome to visit me..."

Incoming email

Why did you write to me about something I posted on the Doves, and then only post your response to "today is the day of salvation" on your website, when I responded to your letter? Why didn't you post my response to your letter? Here it is for your readers:
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Dear Marilyn, I'm not really surprised that you wrote to me. I would like to share my veiw on these things also, respectfully.

Ok, for one thing I believe that the scriptures 1 Cor 15:51 and surrounding verses and 1 Thes. 4:16 and surrounding verses are refering to one and the same event. Because, the bible says in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses (scriptures) let every word be established. These verses are talking about the pre-trib rapture- clearly so. If we only had 1 Thes to describe the pre-trib rapture and resurection - could we really base a whole theological concept on just that one scripture? No, not according to the way scripture is intended to interpret scripture.

As I am sure you are aware, that when God is establishing a doctrine in scripture he will repeat it at least twice or more. And sometimes each instance will not have the exact wording, therefore, bringing out a different aspect of the same truth. It says "last trump" in one and "the trump of God" in the next. Could there be a trump for the resurrected saints and a trump for us who are alive and remain? Could be a possibility.

Also, the verses you mentioned in Mathew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 which I did go look up and read in their context are speaking of one and the same event - which is the 2nd return of Jesus when he will gather up all of us that are in heaven with all of them that are on the earth, "immediately after the tribulation of those days". The one that only mentions heaven is correct because those tribulation saints are all dead and their souls are in heaven. When it says they gather them up from the earth - it is speaking of their bodies that will be resurrected. All of the trib saints die martyrs - for it is clearly writen in Revelation.

Rev 6:9 When He opened the 5th seal, I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held (these are clearly trib saints). 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying "how long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11. Then a white robe was given to each of them that they should rest a little while longer, UNTIL BOTH THE NUMBER OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS (OTHER TRIB SAINTS), WHO WOULD (Notice: it says would not should) BE KILLED AS THEY WERE, WAS COMPLETE."

Ok, that just makes it clear as day. The only way one could miss this one is if they believed in conspiracy theories within scripture. This is very clear and concise.

In Rev. 7:9 we see the great multitude which no one could number clothed with white robes. They received their white robes because "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they DID NOT LOVE THEIR LIVES TO THE DEATH." Rev12:11.

The pre-trib rapture is called the blessed hope. In concept, it seems clear to me, that the rapture is a blessing to all of us who believe without seeing. "Blessed are those who believe and do not see." After the rapture takes place the physical proof of God, because of the rapture event, will have everyone of earth as having seen evidence of God. That is probably why they will all have to face death for their so called "faith" in God. Clearly it is not "blind faith". Seeing is not believing, seeing is seeing. Faith is based on not seeing - yet believing anyway. So, to say they will die for their belief in God, it seems fitting that they would have to prove their love of Christ with such a heavy price... That is the way it seems to me when I look at what Revelation clearly says here. It has to be clear, because after the rapture, the trib saints need to prepare their hearts for the ultimate price they will pay for not believing in Him before the rapture.

Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. He who loves his life will lose it; and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." John 12:24

This could be interpreted a few ways. But perhaps it speaks of us before the rapture, I know speaking of myself I can certainly say that I hate my life in this world and I am eager to see Christ. Yet, those who God has drawn and reject him now because they love their life in the world will lose their lives in the trib whether they deside to follow Christ or not. This is one way you could look at what Jesus said in John 12:24.

As far as what you wrote concerning the torso and the 2 feet I didn't notice that you had very much scripture that clearly explains what you are talking about, therefore I do not know what you mean by all that. I don't see anything in the new testament that would explain what you are talking about. I would need to see more scripture that plainly describes what you are saying.

Either way, if there be another rapture, I don't see the point in telling unbelievers about it before the rapture, filling them with hope - that may be false hope. I stand by what the Lord says "today is the day of salvation". God may come to a person and that may be their chance to get saved and if they miss it there may not be another chance for that person. We are not promised the next breath. They may die or the Spirit may not woo them again once they have rejected Christ. I know He gives everyone several chances to believe - he seeks us all out. But the bible teaches through-out that you have to grab onto salvation while it is near you.

God Bless you and your family, I enjoy reading your website. In Him

My reply

> > I believe that the scriptures 1 Cor 15:51 and surrounding verses and 1 Thes. 4:16 and surrounding verses are refering to one and the same event.

I think they are referring to two Raptures, I Thess. 4:13-18 to the first "trump of God," the Pre-Trib Rapture, I Cor. 15:51-53 to the "last trump" of God, the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints. In the former, no change is mentioned. In the latter, we are all changed, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, AND this mortal must put on immortality."

As I understand it, in the first day of the millennial Kingdom of Christ, "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" will be convened in Heaven. The Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30) will be seen on Earth. Then, at the "great sound of a TRUMPET," the saints that had been caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture will be gathered to the assembly "from one end of heaven to the other" (Mt. 24:31).

Mar 13:27 shows us that the 2nd Rapture takes place as the Pre-Trib saints are gathered in Heaven. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously caught up).

There are 2 trumps of God. The type is in In Nu. 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER (not shofars, ram's horns); of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them (both) for the calling of the assembly (the general assembly of Heb. 12:23), and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

The 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles, heads of Israel, the elders of Rev. 4:4, will be in the 1st Rapture. When "ONE TRUMPET" sounds, they, "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST" (I Thess. 4:16). I'll call this the number 1 trumpet.

On a different day, to call all saints to the general assembly in Heaven, the number 1 trumpet will sound again. Those saints will be gathered from one end of Heaven to the other. Then, the number 2 trumpet will sound. The Tribulation saints will be gathered from one end of the Earth to the other and taken to the general assembly in Heaven.

So the first, the number 1, trumpet will call the Church saints to Heaven at the beginning of the Tribulation. Later, at the beginning of the Millennium, the number 1 trumpet will call the Church saints from one end of Heaven to the other to the general assembly in Heaven.

After the number 1 trumpet calls the Church saints in Heaven to the general assembly, the number 2 trumpet calls the Tribulation saints to the same general assembly. They are gathered from one end of the EARTH to the other.

Therefore, only the number 1 silver trumpet will sound at the 1st Rapture, and both the number 1 and the number 2 silver trumpets will sound at the 2nd Rapture. I think this is why the 2nd Rapture is called "the last trump" instead of the 2nd trump.

> > Also, the verses you mentioned in Mathew 24:31 and Mark 13:...are speaking of one and the same event - which is the 2nd return of Jesus when he will gather up all of us that are in heaven with all of them that are on the earth, "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

This is not the Second Advent. After the first day of the Millennium, (the Day of God's Wrath), there will be 7 Jewish months (Eze. 39:12,13) before the Second Advent on Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3), the 1st day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year.

In Rev. 6:17, we find out that "the great day of his wrath is come. The 6th seal is already broken (6:12). The rocks have begun to fall. The Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the heavens (Rev. 6:14-16). The great day of his wrath arrives at 6 PM. Then we see the Tribulation saints that "came out of great tribulation" in Heaven (Rev. 7:14). They are caught up at the "last trump" of God before the breaking of the 7th seal brings on the 7 trumpet judgments that are sounded by angels (Rev. 8:1f).

Mark 13:27 has "immediately after the tribulation of those days" to show us that the Rapture of the Tribulation saints is right after the 1st day of the Millennium begins, not 7 months later when the Second Advent takes place.

> > All of the trib saints die martyrs

Not all die. Rev 12:14-17 shows that those that flee Jerusalem Mid-Trib live. It says, "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

> > "how long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11. Then a white robe was given to each of them that they should rest a little while longer, UNTIL BOTH THE NUMBER OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS (OTHER TRIB SAINTS), WHO WOULD (Notice: it says would not should) BE KILLED AS THEY WERE, WAS COMPLETE." > > Ok, that just makes it clear as day. The only way one could miss this one is if they believed in conspiracy theories within scripture. This is very clear and concise.

We are not told how many will be killed. God knows the number, and exactly when it will be "complete."

> > In Rev. 7:9 we see the great multitude which no one could number clothed with white robes. They received their white robes because "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they DID NOT LOVE THEIR LIVES TO THE DEATH." Rev12:11.

Rev. 7:9,10 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." It does not mention that they were previously killed. They are not just Israelites, they are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (7:9).

Rev. 12:11 refers to Israel. They "loved not their lives unto the death," and yet those that flee to the wilderness and Petra will be preserved (14-16).

> > As far as what you wrote concerning the torso and the 2 feet I didn't notice that you had very much scripture that clearly explains what you are talking about, therefore I do not know what you mean by all that.

That's ok. The Body of Christ has a head (Christ), torso, legs and feet. I think the feet represent the Bride saints and the Tribulation saints.

> > Either way, if there be another rapture, I don't see the point in telling unbelievers about it before the rapture, filling them with hope - that may be false hope. I stand by what the Lord says "today is the day of salvation".

I'm not talking about salvation. I'm talking about there being 2 Raptures for the saints that are already saved. All those that don't go the 1st time will go the 2nd time. Those of group 1 will have crowns and be kings and priests (Rev. 3:11; 5:10). Those of group 2 will be "before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15).

This incorruptible crown is what we are running the race to obtain. In I Cor. 9:23-27, Paul said, "And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the PRIZE? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY." The Laodiceans are spued out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16) at the time of the Rapture. At that time,they are castaways and foolish virgins (Mt. 25:1f).

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant (the unwise) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mat 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

In the parable of the wedding supper, the man without a wedding garment is cast outside the door (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8). Mt. 22:14 says, "many are called, but few are chosen." The Bride of Christ must be chosen. At the time of the Rapture, the saints with the Lamb of God "are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

The prize of hearing the "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1 is to be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. In Phil 3:14, Paul said, "I press toward the mark for the PRIZE of the HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus." The HIGH CALLING is when Jesus says, "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1, the 1st Rapture.

In 2Ti 4:6-8, Paul said, "I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: AND NOT TO ME ONLY, BUT UNTO ALL THEM ALSO THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING." Agape

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