Pro and Con 954

Posted 9-29-02

Incoming email, Re: Pre-trib rapture scriptures

I know you are extemely busy, but could you possibly rebut my brother's rebuttal to your reply to me? This is lengthy, but I am at a loss as to how to respond to him, so I haven't. Thanking you in advance

My reply

> > Yes, Paul says "we meet The Lord in the air," but there is a problem for pre-Tribs when you go to the Greek. The word MEET, apantesis, is a technical word and it means to meet a King or ambassador coming to your city; you go outside the city to MEET them and JOIN with them, accompanying them into your city (as opposed to going to their city). Thus, the Raptured believers join Jesus in the skies and accompany Him to earth.

According to Strong's, the Greek word apantesis (529) is from 528; a (friendly) encounter:--MEET. It is from apantao (528), which is from 575 and a derivative of 473; to meet away, i.e. encounter:--MEET.

The Greek word apo (575) is a primary particle; "OFF," i.e. AWAY (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, DEPARTURE, cessation, completion, reversal. Instead of being held to Earth by gravity, we will not be held to Earth by gravity. We will separate from Earth in the departure--be off and away from the Earth.

The Greek word anti (473) is a primary particle; OPPOSITE, i.e. instead or because of (rarely in addition to):--for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence. Instead of being held to the Earth by gravity, we will do the opposite, fly away from Earth.

Thayer says that apantesis means a meeting, or to meet one. It does not say that we meet him, turn around and come back to Earth.

Green's Interlinear says it means shall be caught away. He translated I Thess. 4:17 thus: "then those who are left alive shall be CAUGHT UP together with those in the clouds TO MEET the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord."

This is not the Second Advent. Christ will not touch the Mt. of Olives and split it at that time. That will happen at the Second Advent, not at the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, or even the Day of God's Wrath. The Second Advent follows the Day of God's Wrath by 7 months, Eze. 38:18-20 is the Day of God's Wrath. After that, Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

Joh 14:2-6 is not talking about the day of thick darkness (the Day of God's Wrath), Neither is it the day when at evening it shall be light (the Second Advent). Instead, it is talking about the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Jesus said, "In my Father's house (Heaven) are many mansions (dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place (Heaven) for you (believers). And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (Heaven), there ye may be also (in Heaven). And whither I go ye know (he goes to Heaven, which is the third heaven I Cor. 12:1,2--1. Mars, 2. Jupiter, 3. Saturn), and the way ye know....Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Jesus is the way. Not only will we be saved by him, we will be taken to Heaven by him.

Job 5:24 says, "thou shalt know that thy tabernacle (dwelling) shall be in peace (only in Heaven at the Pre-Trib Rapture); and thou shalt VISIT THY HABITATION (HEAVEN, THE FATHER'S HOUSE), AND SHALT NOT SIN." There will be no sin in Heaven.

Zech. 14:3-7 speaks of the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath. It says, "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle." The rocks of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth as in the forerunner, Joshua/Jesus' Long Day (Jos. 10:11-14)." After the Day of God's Wrath, Israel will bury the dead for 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13), from Tishri 1 (Feast of Trumpets, Day of God's Wrath) to Nisan 1 (1st day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred year)--in a Jewish Leap Year (like 5768).

On Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:19,21; Hos. 6:3), Jesus will come as the latter rain (Nisan 1). Then, "his feet shall stand in that day (the millennial Day of the Lord) upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come (at the Second Advent), and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE." Notice that all the saints are already with him, having been raptured previously.

One group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:1,4;5:9, BEFORE THE 1ST SEAL IS BROKEN in Rev. 6. The other group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14, BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL IS BROKEN in Rev. 8. The Philadelphians have the "open door" set before them in Rev. 3:8. They go through that door in Rev. 4:1, the 1st Rapture. The 144,000 Israelites are taken to Heaven in Rev. 7, the 2nd Rapture.

Continuing in Zec 14:6,7, it says, "And it shall come to pass in that day (the Second Advent), that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, NOT DAY, NOR NIGHT: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

This is not the Day of God's Wrath. That is a day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1-3). At the end of the shortened Great Tribulation," the last half of the 7 years, "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars (asteroids) shall fall from heaven" (Mt. 24:29). Just before the asteroids impact Earth, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (the 'last trump' of God, I Cor. 15:51,52), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER." These are the ones previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Mar 13:23-27 acknowledges the gathering from one end of Heaven to the other, but it also tells us about the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which happens at the same time those already in Heaven are gathered to the "general Heaven, and to God the Judge of all (i.e., at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven). Christ is not coming to touch down on the Mt. of Olives then. It is the day of his coronation, the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven.

Mark 13:23-27 says, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation (the shortened Tribulation), the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars (asteroids) of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then (on the Day of God's Wrath on Earth, the result of Christ's judging in Heaven) shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (This is the Sign of the Son of Man, not the Second Advent.) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

The Pre-Wrath Rapture happens between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. The 6th is broken in Rev. 6:12. Rev 6:12-17 says, "I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN BECAME BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the STARS OF HEAVEN FELL unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And THE HEAVEN (THE SMOKY SKY) DEPARTED AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE (THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN), and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev. 11:17,18 says, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord), and wast (at the First Advent), and ART TO COME (THE SECOND ADVENT IS STILL 7 MONTHS FUTURE); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (it is his coronation day in Heaven). And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

Christ is not on Earth at that time, and none of the saints are on Earth at that time. We are not appointed to wrath. 1Th 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (soteria, rescue) by our Lord Jesus Christ." Not one saint will be left on Earth when the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth. The asteroid in Rev. 8:8 will hit the Mediterranean Sea at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5). Therefore the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place between 6 PM, when the Feast of Trumpets begins, and the following noon.

> > Note that 2 Thess starts with chapter 1, which says in vv 6-8 "For after all, it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

> > This plainly says Christians get relief from their affliction AND the unbelievers are punished when Jesus is REVEALED--at the REVELATION of Jesus. That is not a secret pre-Trib Rapture. The pre-Trib rapture does not fit the Scripture here or elsewhere. These two events occur together-- that cannot happen with a secret pre-Trib Rapture AND Jesus is NOT revealed according to Pre-Trib theology. But Rev 1:7 agrees that when Jesus comes, every eye will see Him--He will be REVEALED.

Christ will be revealed to the saints at the Pre-Trib Rapture. He will be revealed to the Pre-Wrath saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. He will be revealed to the unbelievers later that day when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky. He will be revealed to every eye at the Second Advent. All the raptured saints will come with him. All still living on Earth will see him too.

When John was caught up to Heaven in Rev. 1:10, that was a Preview of what we will see and hear at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Lord Jesus Christ will tell us exactly who he is. "I am Alpha and Omega, the first (YHVH king of Israel) and the last (YHVH of hosts, Isa. 44:6)." He is the "Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

When John is caught up to Heaven, he sees Christ in the midst of the churches (the seven candlesticks) (Rev. 1:13,21). All the overcomers of all 7 church groups are in Heaven at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Jesus still has the star performers in his right hand for he has just snatched them up (1:16). Since he is the Almighty God, his hair will be "as white as snow." His eyes will be "as a flame of fire. His voice will sound like "many waters."

Out "of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword" (1:16) to cut off the ones that are not overcomers. He will cut off the Laodiceans and foolish virgins.

Luke 12:46,47 tells us that "The lord of that servant (the unwise) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware (at the day and hour of the Pre-Trib Rapture), and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers. And that servant (a Christian), which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mt. 22:11-14 expands on this. A man at the marriage festival "had not on a wedding garment (i.e., white robes of righteousness): And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless (He thought he had it made, but he wasn't ready; his robe was spotted by the flesh, Jude 1:23). Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness (outside of Heaven's door, Rev. 3:8); there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."

Rev. 17:14 is a view when the Rapture has just taken place. Those "that ARE with him ARE called, and CHOSEN, and faithful." We need to use I John 1:9, confess all our known sins to God so he can clease us of ALL unrighteousness."

When Jesus washed Peter's feet, he said in Joh 13:10 He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit." In v. 8, Jesus had told Peter bluntly, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me." The one with dirty feet will not be chosen at the Pre-Trib Rapture. He will be cut off and will be caught up with the Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. We let Jesus wash our feet when we confess our sins.

> > >Let no man deceive YOU (BELIEVERS) by any means: for that day (Day of the Lord, the Millennium) shall not come (first day, Day of God's Wrath), except there come a falling away (APOSTASIA, DEPARTURE, similar to apospao, draw away, and apostacion, divorcement, i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture)

> > Apostasy is not the Rapture.

Apostasy is an English word. In Webster's, the 1st meaning is "renunciation of a religious faith." The 2nd meaning is "DEFECTION." Defection is "conscious abandonment of allegiance or duty (as to a person, cause, or doctrine : DESERTION."

Those to be raptured are not renouncing their faith, so that doesn't fit. DEFECTION fits better. That is when someone consciously abandons allegiance to one country and goes to another. At the Rapture, we will abandon the Earth and go to another planet. We will desert Earth.

Apostacia is a Greek word meaning departure. We will depart from Earth, actually fly from the Earth.

> > This falsehood has been repeated for at least 70 years. More repetition does not make it so.

Neither does repetition make it not so. We have to base our understanding upon but the Word of God. Men can be wrong, and until Moses and Elijah return, there are no true prophets on Earth.

> > Even other well-known pre-Trib pastors and teachers admit that the apostasy or falling away is NOT the Rapture. Just saying it is doesn't change the Greek. See 1 Tim 4:1 when it talks about some falling away from the faith. Those who have associated themselves with Christians, but aren't, will withdraw from being counted with the Christians to avoid being persecuted. This is hardly the Rapture. The Greek word is used in a dozen other passages--nowhere does it mean Rapture, not even here.

Please tell me where the dozen other passages are. Young's says apostasia is used 2 times. In II Thess. 2:3 (KJV), "he apostasia" is translated "a falling away." Young says it means "THE falling away." It is something specific instead of a general trend. Since the center of Earth is down, if we fall away from Earth, we are definitely going up. Since this is a particular falling away, it fits the Rapture. Since he apostasia means the departure, I'll stick with the World English Bible's, "Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE COMES FIRST, and the man of sin (the False Prophet) is revealed (second), the son of destruction." This gives us the proper order of these events, first the Rapture and second the revealing of the False Prophet.

In Acts 21:21, apostasia apo (up) is translated "to forsake Moses." It means to DEPART FROM the teachings of Moses, yet apo means up, as in departing up from something.

I Tim. 4:1 says, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall DEPART FROM the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." "DEPART FROM" is Strong's 868, APHISTEMI (A DIFFERENT WORD, BUT SIMILAR TO APOSTASIA; IT MEANS DEPART AND IS TRANSLATED THAT WAY), from 575 and 2476; TO REMOVE, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, DESERT, etc.:--DEPART, draw (fall) away, refrain, WITHDRAW SELF. > > Sorry, but poor use of the Greek text does not give an accurate English meaning to Scripture. These verses help to point out the very poor Scriptural basis of a pre-Trib Rapture. Without the Biblical support, the argument is stillborn.

I'm sure you didn't realize that you started with apostasia and veered off talking about aphistemi. I think the Bible supports the Pre-Trib Rapture to those that haven't been indoctrinated with man's ideas before reading the Bible to see what it says all by itself.

> > Marilyn may talk about 2 raptures, but the Bible doesn't

I got it from reading Scripture first, before I studied what men say that the Bible says.

> > In 1 Thess 4:15, it talks about the "coming of the Lord" or the parousia. This is the same topic of 2 Thess chapter 1 and 2; and thus is talking about the same event. In 2 Thess 2:1, it talks about the coming of the Lord, parousia, and says there are 2 signs that precede the coming--one is the apostary (and even it you incorrectly translate that as the Rapture, then you have another problem; the rapture must come before the parousia, but the parousia is rapture that 1 Thess 4:13-18 talks about , so you have confusion--which is not of God, because he is a God of order, not confusion. Confusion, Hebrew, Babel, is of Satan, not God.

You say that with great confidence that you are right, but I'm not confused. I see the picture clearly. Parousia is not restricted to the "rapture that I Thess 4:13-18 talks about." It isn't even restricted to applying to Christ alone. You are making that word mean more than it does mean. If I use the English word "coming," it could apply to anyone that was coming. Parousia is similar. It is translated 22 times as "coming" and 2 times as "presence." According to Young, it means presence, a being alongside. Strong's says parousia, from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence. 3918 is pareimi, to be near, i.e. at hand, come, be here, present.

Parousia does not mean Rapture. It isn't only used with reference to Jesus, either. 2Co 10:10,11 says, "For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his (Paul's) bodily (soma) presence (parousia) is weak, and his speech contemptible." In Phil. 2:12, Paul said, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my (Paul's)presence (parousia) only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Parousia is translated "coming" in 22 scriptures, but they do not all apply to Christ. They don't all apply to the Rapture, either. I Thess. 3:13 says, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS." That is the Second Advent. Zech. 14:5 says, "ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come (Heb. bo, to come), and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE."

Parousia does not always apply to Christ. I Cor. 16:17 says, "I am glad at the coming (parousia) of Stephanas." II Cor. 7:6 says, "comforted us by the coming (parousia) of Titus." Phi 1:26 says, "That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me (Paul) by my coming (parousia) to you again." II Thess. 2:9 says, "whose coming (parousia) is after the working of Satan." Therefore, parousia simply means to come. It can be applied to anyone, it does not mean the Rapture exclusively, and it cannot be used to prove your point. Christ can come, be present (parousia), at different times for different reasons.

> > So, Paul clearly states that 2 signs come before the parousia, and they are (1) apostasy, and (2) the Antichrist. Since the Antichrist clearly is revealed (exposed; all can see), Paul says when he takes his seat in the temple and declares himself to be god (vv 3-4), the Rapture MUST take place after that. So, you cannot have the parousia of the Lord before two events, one of which occurs in the Tribulation. Hence, no Rapture before the Tribulation. > > One must use the correct understanding of the Greek.

If the Lord came in January, February and March, each coming would be a parousia of the Lord.

The Holy Spirit that restrains the coming of the False Prophet must be "taken out of the way. And then (i.e., after the Pre-Trib Rapture) shall that Wicked be revealed" (II Thess. 2:8). You see, believers are the salt of the Earth. Just as salt in bread making retards the growth of yeast/leaven, the presence on Earth of these believers retards the appearance of the False Prophet. Only after the Rapture takes them away from Earth can the False Prophet be revealed. "

2Th 2:6-9 says, "now ye know what WITHOLDETH that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time (the 70th week of Dan. 9:27, the Tribulation). For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (the Holy Spirit) who now letteth will let (Old English for hindereth will HINDER), until he (the Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way (at the Rapture). And then (after the Rapture) shall that Wicked (Satan-possessed False Prophet) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his (Christ's) coming (PAROUSIA, i.e., Second Advent): Even him (the False Prophet), whose coming (PAROUSIA) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

The sign that comes before the Tribulation is the Rapture, when the Holy Spirit takes the wise Philadelphian virgins (Rev. 3:7-13; Mt. 25:1f) through the "open door" (Rev. 3:8) to Heaven (Rev. 4:1). The sign that the Tribulation has begun (Rev. 6) is the revealing of the False Prophet, which can't take place until after the Bride of Christ is removed in the Rapture (Rev. 4:1).

Christ will not be given the Title Deed of the Earth until the Bride group is in Heaven (Rev. 4:1; 5:9). The Tribulation of Rev. 6 will not come until Christ is given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth in Rev. 5. The departure at the Rapture comes "first." After the Rapture, the False Prophet will be revealed--second.

It is as 2Th 2:3-8 (WEB) says: "THE DEPARTURE COMES FIRST, and the man of sin is revealed (second), the son of destruction, he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God...Now you know what (the Holy Spirit in the salt of the Earth) is restraining him (the False Prophet), to the end that he may be revealed in his own season (the Tribulation). For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one (the Holy Spirit in the salt of the Earth) who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way (at the Rapture). Then (after the Rapture) the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming (parousia i.e., the Second Advent)." For proper understanding, we must get the order of events correct. The Rapture precedes the Tribulation.

Isa. 57:1 (LXX, Brenton) says, "See how the just man has perished, and no one lays it to heart: and righteous men (including the 'just man') are taken away (acaph, gathered up, taken up, taken away, withdrawn, i.e., raptured), and no one considers: for the righteous has been removed (at the Rapture) out of the way of injustice" (in the coming Tribulation).

Even if "perisheth" means dieth, the next phrase shows that the living are taken away from the evil to come in the Tribulation. Here is Isa 57:1 in some other translations. The translators agree.

(ASV) "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; AND MERCIFUL MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME" (IN THE TRIBULATION).

(Darby) "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM BEFORE THE EVIL" (Tribulation).

(KJV) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and MERCIFUL MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME" (the Tribulation.

(LITV) "The righteous one perishes, and no one lays it to heart; yea, MERCIFUL MEN ARE GATHERED, with no one discerning that THE RIGHTEOUS IS GATHERED FROM THE FACE OF EVIL."

(NAB) "The just man perishes, but no one takes it to heart; DEVOUT MEN ARE SWEPT AWAY, with no one giving it a thought. Though HE IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF EVIL, THE JUST MAN."

World English Bible (WEB) "The righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; AND MERCIFUL MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME."

(Webster) "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: AND MERCIFUL MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME."

(YLT) "The righteous hath perished, And there is none laying it to heart, AND MEN OF KINDNESS ARE GATHERED, Without any considering that FROM THE FACE OF EVIL GATHERED IS THE RIGHTEOUS ONE."

What is the evil to come (the Tribulation), and how close is it to the Rapture? The Tribulation and the harlot church are "NEAR."

Isa. 57:3 (KJV) says, "But draw NEAR hither, ye sons of the sorceress (Jezebel, Rev. 2:20), the seed of the adulterer (The Beast, the Tribulation Pope) and the whore" (United Religions).

> > The departure is not of the Christians, but of the non-christians.

How could the Beast and False Prophet come to power if all the wicked were purged from the Earth and only the Christians left through the Tribulation?

> > All those Bibles quoted were translated by men who believed in a POST-TRIB rapture, not a Pre-Trib

Then why is the removal of the righteous so prominent in their translations?

> > not a Pre-Trib (which has been popular about 100 years and first surfaced about 1830). The Early Church, the Apostles, and all the Church Fathers knew nothing about a pre-Trib Rapture. This speaks very, very heavily against such a view. The reason they did not know about it is simple--is isn't in the Bible. It was made up in the 1800's.

Neither thing is true. The Rapture is in the Bible, and early Christians understood that the Rapture would take the righteous away before the Tribulation.

That Margaret-macDonald-1830-no-Pre-Trib-Rapture story is what is made up.

In his approx. 1500-word sermon (which I have copies of in English and Latin), "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627 AD) said, "ALL THE SAINTS and elect of God ARE GATHERED TOGETHER BEFORE THE TRIBULATION, WHICH IS TO COME, AND ARE TAKEN TO THE LORD, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." (Alexander, Paul J. "The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition [Berkeley: Univ. of CA Press, 1985] p. 210).

Also, from my copy, he said, "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and PREPARE OURSELVES FOR THE MEETING OF THE LORD CHRIST, SO THAT HE MAY DRAW US FROM THE CONFUSION, WHICH OVERWHELMS ALL THE WORLD? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: 'Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord?' FOR ALL THE SAINTS AND ELECT OF GOD ARE GATHERED, PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION THAT IS TO COME, AND ARE TAKEN TO THE LORD LEST THEY SEE THE CONFUSION THAT IS TO OVERWHELM THE WORLD BECAUSE OF OUR SINS."

"And there will be a great tribulation, as there has not been since people began to be on earth...and no one is able to sell or buy of the grain of the harvest, unless he is the one who has the serpentine sign sign on the forehead or the hand. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know and on the day which the enemy or the son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints".

This minister, c. 374-627 AD, knew the order of events in the end times much better than these people who claim that the Rapture wasn't taught until 1830.

> > Daniel, on the other hand in Chapter 12, says the resurrection will come after the Tribulation.

To understand Dan. 12:1,2, we have to understand Dan. 11:45. The False Prophet is in view, "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." The setting is the end of the age. Then Rev. 12:1,2 says, "And at that time (the end of the age) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (Israel): and there shall be a time of trouble (one day, the time of Jacob's trouble), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (Day of God's Wrath) thy people (the 144,000 Israelites of Rev. 7) shall be DELIVERED (malat, ESCAPE, in Rapture 2, the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." At the 1st Rapture, only the wise Philadelphian virgins are caught up. At the 2nd Rapture, every believer is caught up before God's wrath falls at noon.

Zep 2:1-5 started to be fulfilled in 1948. It says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (in Heaven) in the day of the LORD'S anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."

The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea at noon on the Day of God's Wrath. No believers will be on Earth that day, not even the foolish Laodicean virgins that were cut off at the 1st Rapture.

> > Rev. 20:4 says the FIRST resurrection comes after the Tribulation.

However, the First Resurrection is in ranks. 1Co 15:22-23 makes that clear. It says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Jesus was the first rank of the First Resurrection. The saints that came out of their graves after Jesus did seem to be the 2nd rank of the First Resurrection. If so, the 1st Rapture will be the 3rd rank in the First Resurrection, and the 2nd Rapture will be the last rank in the First Resurrection, which is the "resurrection of the just (Lu. 14,13,14). The second Resurrection will be for unbelievers, "the resurrection unto damnation" (Jn. 5:29).

Rev 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death (at the Second Resurrection) hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

> > 1 Thess 4:13-18 says a resurrection of the dead saints and a rapture of the live ones occurs at the parousia of Jesus!! Since the FIRST resurrection occurs after the Tribulation, so must the Rapture. Again, QED.

Since parousia means coming, it doesn't specify when he will come. The clue that gives that away is that this Rapture is the first trump of God. The Rapture in I Cor. 15:51,52 is the "last trump" of God. There is a first trump of God and a last trump of God. The 1st is before the 1st seal is opened on the Title Deed of the Earth in Rev. 6. The 2nd is before noon on the Day of God's Wrath, before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth at noon.

> > If you start in the wrong direction with the Greek and the understanding, running faster in the wrong direction does not give clarity nor correctness to one's conclusions. Hence, the rest of what you wrote does not lead to the the correct answer. Once you start trying to force the Scripture to fix preconceived ideas, the rest is downhill, and provides, at best, well-intentioned garbage. If all of what Marilyn says is correct, it is just a bit odd that no one knew or understood this for the first 1900 years after Jesus came.

Paul understood it. The rest of the apostles understood it for Paul didn't have to set them straight on it when he went to Jerusalem. The 11 apostles heard it from Christ before the Ascension. Paul heard it from Christ too, after the Ascension. When he got to talk with the 11, his doctrine agreed with theirs. Pseudo-Ephraim understood it too, c. 374-627 AD.

> > Isa. 26:19 is the probably first reference to the resurrection in the OT; it is in times of trouble and distress. Like Daniel, this is after the great Tribulation. It agrees with Revelation 20--the FIRST resurrection is after the Tribulation.

Isa. 26:18,19 (KJV) says, "We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen (the time is just before the 2nd Rapture before noon on the Day of God's wrath). Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise." Trying to make sense out of it, the translators supplied "men" and "together with." There were no Hebrew words for these. This translation is puzzling. It seems obvious that the Tribulation saints can't rise with Jesus on Resurrection Day back in 30 AD. At the end of the shortened Tribulation, they can't rise with Jesus either, for his body is not dead at that time. It was resurrected on the 3rd day after the Crucifixion.

Green's Interlinear says, "Your dead ones shall live, my dead body, THEY shall arise; awake and sing, dust-dwellers, for the dew of lights (is) your dew; and the earth shall cast out departed spirits." It seems that the Lord was talking about his dead Body of Christ, i.e., the foolish Laodicean virgins that had died. They shall arise at the 2nd Rapture.

Isa. 26:19 (WEB) says, "Your dead shall live; my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast forth the dead."

The resurrection of the rest of the dead members of the Body of Christ are the last rank in the First Resurrection.

> > Since the FIRST resurrection occurs AFTER the Tribulation and a resurrection occurs with the Rapture (1 Thess 4), it stands that the Rapture must either come after the Tribulation (with the First Resurrection) or even later than that (which no one accepts). It cannot come earlier that the FIRST resurrection.

Only the last rank of the First Resurrection takes place after the shortened Tribulation. That last rank is caught up to Heaven in I Cor. 15:51,52, when the "last trump" sounds. The First Resurrection began on Resurrection Day, the Feast of Firstfruits, in 30 AD.

> > Paul, in Acts 28:15 uses apantesis, "to meet." The word apantesis is that special form of meet, used only 3 times in the Bible.

Young says it was used 4 times, in Mt. 25:1, Mt. 25:6, Acts 28:15 and I Thess 4:17, all translated "to meet."

Once was in 1 Thess 4, where we "meet" the Lord. In Acts 28, the brethern from Rome find out Paul is coming to Rome and they go south to the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns "to meet" Paul. What happened then? They joined in Paul's party and accompanied him to Rome (from whence they had just come). Exactly the same for us when we "meet" the Lord in the skies, like the brethern at the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns meeting Paul, we join with the Lord and accompany him to the Earth.

After the Rapture, we will be with Paul where he is--in Heaven. We will not be in a different place. Yet, these men could not be where Paul was, in prison. Acts 28:16 says, "when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him."

If it was as you say, the raptured saints would all be with Christ when the wrath of God hit Earth. Why? he doesn't need their help. Isa 63:3 says of Christ, "I HAVE TRODDEN THE WINEPRESS ALONE; AND OF THE PEOPLE THERE WAS NONE WITH ME: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." Therefore, the raptured saints do not go out to meet Christ and then return to Earth with him on the Day of God's Wrath, which is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

The saints are not appointed to wrath, either. 1Th 5:9 says, "God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation (soteria, RESCUE) by our Lord Jesus Christ."

When men look up and see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky, Mat 24:31 says, "he shall send his ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." These are the Bride of Christ that were caught up to Heaven before the Tribulation.

Job 5:24 says, "And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle (dwelling place) shall be in peace (i.e., in Heaven); and THOU SHALT VISIT THY HABITATION (HEAVEN) AND SHALT NOT SIN."

The Lord will send his angels to gather his saints from both Heaven and Earth to the general assembly in Heaven. Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (RAPTURE 2) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (gather the Bride saints that were caught up to Heaven before the Tribulation).

Heb 12:22-25 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the FIRSTBORN (partaking in the First Resurrection), which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they (Israel) ESCAPED NOT who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape (i.e., not be raptured), if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven." He will say, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1) before the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth is given to Christ (Rev. 5:1-7) after the 1st Rapture takes place.

> > If Paul didn't mean we join Him and accompany Him to the Earth, it would not have used apantesis. The Holy Spirit would have gently "suggested" Paul use the regular word for meet, not apantesis. Again, QED.

The correct words were used, "apantesis" and "eis." It was a friendly encounter.

Ellen, without preconceived ideas, the Scriptures on the Rapture are pretty clear. That is why for 1800 years, there was no concept of a pre-Trib Rapture. v The Raptures are pretty clear, and both the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Pre-Wrath Rapture were known to John and Paul. If they were known to them, they were known to the rest of the apostles.

Rev. 5:9 shows that the Bride saints are in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. These are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." These are caught up as in the days of Noah, when only water (symbol of the Holy Spirit) fell.

Rev. 7:9,14 shows the 144,000 and a great multitude that can't be numbered in Heaven between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. These come out of great tribulation. They are caught up as the days of Lot. Luke 17:29,30 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." The day the Sign of the Son of Man is revealed is the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. That is the Day of God's Wrath, when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth. Agape

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