Pro and Con 959

Posted 9-15-02

"WHEN THE SEASON ENDS," from 5 Doves site

CAPS (14 Oct 2002)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2002/caps1014-2.htm
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Miriam, thanks for sending this. The time that Noah was on the Ark while the floods coverd the earth was 5 months. This time ENDED on Nisan 17....the day of the Resurrection. Is it possible that the Season of Noah would END then?? David

--- Original Message ---
From: Miriam
Re: CHESHVAN, THE SEASON OF WITHERING

*CHESHVAN
Sign: Akrav (Scorpion) - because the earth is thirsty for water
Other Names: Mar Cheshvan, Bul, Hachodesh HaShmini

Significance:Cheshvan, the month following Tishrei on the modern Jewish calendar is referred to in the Tanach as Yerach Bul (Kings I, Chapter 6:38). Bul refers to the idea that during this month the grass withers (baleh) and feed is mixed (bolelin) in the house for the animals (Rashi’s interpretation). Others think it may come from the word yevul (produce) for during this month plowing and planting begin in Israel. Still others see a reference to Mabul, flood, since according to the Midrash more rain falls in this month since it marks the beginning of the great Flood during the time of Noach.

In modern times, this month has become known as Cheshvan or Mar Cheshvan, which seems to have originated at the time that Jews came back to Israel after the Babylonian Exile. The prefix Mar (which means bitter) is a reference to this month having no festivals or rejoicing, but much suffering for Jews throughout the ages. Also during this month, God brought down the Flood and drowned the world (except for Noach and those with him on the ark.)...

Cheshvan is the only month which has no holidays or special mitzvot.We are taught that it is "reserved" for the time of Mashiach, who will inaugurate the third Temple in Cheshvan.

Letter: nun.

Nun is considered to be the letter of Mashiach, as is said (with reference to Mashiach): "before the sun, is his name Ye-non [from nun]" (Psalms 72:17). As a verb-root, nun means "to reign." As a noun, it means "the heir to the throne" (from nin). The eighth month is the month of Mashiach, for eight signifies the eternal revelation of the supernatural (the consummate state of rectified nature being the secret of the number seven)....

My reply

Re: "before the sun, is his name Ye-non [from nun]" (Psalms 72:17).

I have run into this before. It was in a booklet about the Messiah I found in BIOLA's library. The author said it was like this in the Hebrew. Also, the Complete Jewish Bible says, "May his name endure forever, his name, Yinnon, as long as the sun." If you stumble on anything else on this, please let me know.

Chaos seen in movement of ring-herding moons of Saturn

NASA/JPL NEWS RELEASE 10-12-2 http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0210/12saturnmoons/
Scientists have a new explanation for weird movements of two small moons that shepherd one of Saturn's rings: Pandora, which keeps the narrow F ring from spreading outward, and Prometheus, which rides herd along the same ring's inner edge.

Observations of the pair in recent years found them far from where they should have been based on orbital movements calculated from NASA's Voyager spacecraft observations during Saturn flybys in 1980 and 1981. Pandora is about 20 degrees farther around in its orbit than it would be if it had followed standard physics for the past two decades. Prometheus lags behind its predicted position by about the same amount. At the size of these moons' orbits, 20 degrees is more than 160,000 kilometers (100,000 miles)....

The story took a further twist in the mid-1990s, while Saturn's rings were edge-on toward Earth so the timing was good for observing Prometheus and Pandora with NASA's Hubble Space Telescope. Analysis of those and subsequent observations by several researchers in New York and Massachusetts revealed that each moon was about 20 degrees from where normal orbital mechanics would have put it. This was an amazing discovery. For the first time ever, astronomers found that they could not predict the orbits of objects in the sky.

Goldreich and Rappaport have demonstrated that chaotic orbits of the F ring shepherds could produce changes in location very similar to those observed with the Hubble Space Telescope. "The chaos is due to the gravitational interactions between the two moons," Rappaport said. "This is the first observation ever of chaotic orbital motions in the solar system."...

My comment

Those astronomers are to be commended for trying and even more so for admitting their failure, but it sure shows man's inadequacy to even explain things that are totally in God's control. The rings of Saturn are no accident. God placed them there carefully to mark the planet that is the throne of Christ. No wonder the Lord called the rainbow "my bow" as a token of his covenant given to Noah (Gen. 9:12,13).

(LXX, Brenton) (Zech. 3:10) says, "as for the stone (i.e., planet) which I have set before the face of Jesus (which is Yhowshua [Joshua] in Hebrew and Iesous [Jesus] in Greek), on the one stone (planet) are seven eyes" (i.e., seven rings). These seven rings mark the seventh planet symbolized by the candlestick in the temple. According to Josephus, they include the Sun. All are naked-eye objects.

(1) Sun, the western light that was always to be kept lit
(2) Mercury
(3) Venus
(4) Earth, the middle light
(5) Mars
(6) Jupiter
(7) Saturn, which also has 7 rings

The Hebrew word for eye is "ayin," an eye (literally or figuratively), outward appearance, look. In English, an eye is also called an orb, and the bony socket of the eye is called the orbit. Think of the circular pupil surrounded by the circular iris set in the circular orbit.

The eye is a good symbol of Saturn and her orbiting concentric rings. Since Saturn rocks up and down from our viewpoint, more often than not, Saturn looks even more like our eyes.

Rev. 4:3 and Eze. 1:26-28 give us other views of the throne of Christ and her rings. Rev. 4:3 says, "THERE WAS A RAINBOW ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE." Sunlight on ice crystals form a rainbow. Eze. 1:26-28 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the terrestrial planets (the 4 cherubim, the 4 inner planets orbiting the Sun) was the likeness of a throne (Christ's), as the appearance of a sapphire (which means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear) stone (sapphire is the 7th stone in the list of precious stones that represent the planets Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab [Satan's planet that is now our Asteroid Belt], Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto): and upon the likeness of the throne (the sapphire throne)was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Christ) above upon it.

Continuing, Eze 1:27,28 says, "And I saw as the colour of amber (from reflected sunlight), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (lit., the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it (the sphere of Saturn) had brightness round about(the rings). As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain (the 7 color bands of the rainbow: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet), so was the appearance of the brightness round about (i.e., the 7 bright rings around Saturn). This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD." The rainbow is "his bow" and can be seen as a full circle sometimes from above the Earth.

Rev 4:5 says, "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." The Lord's throne is marked again by the number of perfection, seven.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/pxsat.html#Saturn

From 5 Doves site

Carole Alexander (14 Oct 2002)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2002/carolea1014.htm

When Jesus returns the second time, He will burn the earth. There will be NO kingdom on earth. NONE! I don't see how you make any point!

http://www.deafmissions.com/DM%20Pages/burnbabyburn.html
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Will the earth be destroyed when Jesus comes?

Some people teach: The earth will not be destroyed. In the future eternity, people will live on earth.

The Bible says: "But the Day when the Lord comes again will be a surprise like a thief. The sky will disappear with a loud noise. All the things in the sky will be destroyed with fire. And the earth and everything in it will be burned." (2 Peter 3:10)
SEE ALSO: 2 Peter 3:11-13; Revelation 21:1

My reply

Maybe you haven't been a Christian very long. May I gently remind you that we must compare what people say with what the Bible says? The Bible is the only real truth we have. The person whose URL you referred me to to doesn't understand Scripture correctly. To unravel the correct meaning, we have to compare a passage with other passages on the same subject. Scripture is line upon line, here a little and there a little so the wicked will fall backward and be taken.

Isa.Isa 28:13 says, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

That doesn't mean that they are not saved. All it takes to be saved is to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our own personal Saviour. If we are right about that, we can be wrong about other things and still make it to Heaven, if not at the Pre-Trib Rapture, at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Rev. 20:6-8 says, "I (John) saw an angel come down from heaven (to Earth), having the key of the bottomless pit (center of Earth) and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit (into Earth's core, where all directions are up), and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he (Satan) should deceive the nations (still present on Earth after the 1000 years) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled (on Earth): and after that he must be loosed a little season (from the bottomless pit on Earth).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (in his 1000-year kingdom called the Day of the Lord). But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him (Christ) a thousand years (in His kingdom). Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle (on Earth): the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Israel is promised the Earth forever. Those Israelites that are as the stars of heaven will be in Heaven (as in Heb. 11:16). Those that are as the sand of the sea will be on Earth.

Psa 10:16 says, "The LORD is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land" (Israel, on Earth).

Jer 7:7,says, "Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land (Israel, on Earth) that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

> > The Bible says: "But the Day when the Lord comes again will be a surprise like a thief. The sky will disappear with a loud noise. All the things in the sky will be destroyed with fire. And the earth and everything in it will be burned." (2 Peter 3:10)

Let's read on a little farther. II Peter 3:11-13 (KJV) says, "the day of the Lord (Christ's 1000-year Kingdom) will come (1st day) as a thief in the night (at 6 PM, probably on Tishri 1, 5768/Sept. 13, 2007); in the which the heavens (atmospheric) shall pass away with a great noise (when the 2 asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth), and the elements (both of the atmosphere and Earth) shall melt with fervent heat (only part of the atmosphere and Earth, from the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8 and 10; Zeph. 2:4,5; Rev. 18:21), the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming (on Earth) of the day of God (i.e., Day of God's Wrath), wherein the heavens (atmospheric) being on fire (the part that is on fire) shall be dissolved, and the elements (in the area of the two asteroid impacts) shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new (kainos, refreshed) heavens and a new (kainos, refreshed, i.e., earth), wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Eze. 39:12f shows that the asteroid impacts precede the Second Advent by 7 months, and that the Earth is here during and following that time.

It says, "it shall come to pass in that day (Day of God's Wrath), that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel (graves dug in the soil of the Earth), the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude (on Earth): and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months (following the Day of God's Wrath, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the day Christ receives his kingdom) shall the house of Israel be burying of them (in the Earth), that they may cleanse the land (of Israel in the Earth). Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (Christ will be glorified at the Second Advent 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath, i.e., on Nisan 1; Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3), saith the Lord GOD. And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it (the face of the Earth): after the end of seven months shall they search" (on Earth).

The elements that get destroyed on the Day of God's Wrath can't be all the elements. The grave diggers breath air and shovel dirt for 7 more months before Christ returns in glory. Why would they bury the dead if everything was going to be destroyed when Christ sets his feet on the Mount of Olives. Zech. 14,5 says that the Mt. of Olives will split when his feet touch it. The soil of Earth is still there 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath. Men will flee. What will they walk on? Yes, Earth. It will still be here.

Excerpt from: "DIVINE DESIGN" CHALLENGES DARWINISM

by Charisma News Service - October 1, 2002 Leading ophthalmologist James P. Gills has diagnosed a serious problem among many leaders of the scientific community. They are blinded by "spiritual cataracts," he says, which prevent them from seeing God's hand in creation.

Gills draws on his own professional knowledge as an example of the evidence that points to divine design in "Darwinism Under the Microscope," co-written with Thomas Woodward, published by Charisma House.

The founder of St. Luke's Cataract and Laser Institute in Tarpon Springs, Fla., this world-renowned eye surgeon details how the human eye challenges Darwin's theory that complex systems can develop over time. The organ "presents a conundrum for those theorists trying to explain where the distant, more primitive precursor to the eye was," he writes.

For it is an example of what has been termed an "irreducibly complex" system -- one whose interacting parts work together so closely that the absence of any would stop it from functioning.

Gills and Woodward gathered details of other advances in scientific and medical understanding to underscore how weak the foundations of Darwinism are, despite widespread acceptance in many scientific circles.

"Current, rapid advances in molecular biology and other disciplines have uncovered a complexity in nature that conventional methodology falls short of explaining," Gills writes.

"Still, though the details of biology, chemistry, mathematics, physics, geology and astronomy adduce the role of a Creator, the egoism of many intellectuals, of many people, leaves God on the periphery of experience as either mere opiate or crutch for the weak, rather than as universal architect."

He adds: "The abiding paradox that I have observed in many professionals, including some Nobel laureates, is that the acknowledgement of the intrinsic complexity of the cell has failed to impel them to admit a Creator.

"We boast of human intellectual development as a universal zenith on the one hand, while on the other we neglect to note our failure to understand fully the working of even one cell in the body."

Incoming email, Re: Question On The Millenium

thanks for researching and understanding the point I tried to make about the rapture. Sometimes it's really amazing the difference that one word could make to a whole sentence or topic.

Regarding the question I have: Will Jesus bring back the raptured saints with their glorified bodies back to this earth after the tribulation is over to rule for 1,000 years?
Thanks in advance for your reply. Shalom

My reply

All believers are saints, and all saints will return with Christ, both those of the Bride of Christ caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture and those Tribulation saints caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Zech. 14:5-9 says, "the LORD my God shall come (Second Advent, Nisan 1; Eze. 29:17,19; Hos. 6:3), AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark (it is not the dark day of Mt. 24:29, but 7 months afterward when Christ returns in glory, Eze. 39:12,13): But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (YHVH), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Mediterranean Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Dead Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD (YHVH, king of Israel; Isa. 44:6) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD (YHVH, of hosts, Isa. 44:6), AND HIS NAME ONE."

Isa 44:6 sets that latter matter straight. It says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH King of Israel), AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and besides me there is no God."

The former is the pre-incarnate Christ. The latter is the incarnate Christ. The Son of God has always been the one that dealt with mankind. He spoke to Adam, was seen by and spoke to Abraham, etc.

Joh 1:18 says, "NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD (the Father)AT ANY TIME; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, WHO IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, HE HATH DECLARED HIM." Therefore, the Angel of the LORD (YHVH) that could be seen by men was the pre-incarnate Christ, the everlasting Son of God.

That is why in Rev. 1:8, Christ said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the Almighty."

Rev 22:3,4 says, "there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God (one throne) and of the Lamb (Jesus) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face (one face); and his name (one name) shall be in their foreheads." Even in New Jerusalem, we will see God in the face of Jesus Christ."

In Rev 22:13,16, Jesus Christ says, "I am Alpha (YHVH king of Israel) AND Omega (YHVH of hosts), the beginning (YHVH king of Israel) AND the end (YHVH of hosts), the first (LORD of the Old Testament) AND the last (Lord of the New Testament)....I JESUS HAVE SENT MINE ANGEL (Angel of the LORD) to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH king of Israel) AND the offspring of David" (Jesus).

II Cor. 5:19 says it in a nutshell, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

Since the saints are promised a home in New Jerusalem, it seems reasonable that it will come down and orbit the Earth like the Moon. I think we will commute when our work as kings and priests makes it necessary that we be on Earth during the Millennium.

Rev. 5:9,10 says, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." Shalom and agape

Incoming email

I am a Jewish believer in Yeshua Hamaschiach... Jesus Christ I just wanted to let you know that your website is a blessing.

Our Messiah's footsteps are getting louder. Maranatha

My reply

Thanks so much for letting me know. You are very lucky. You have the best of 2 worlds. I meant Jewish and Christian, but I just had an afterthought about 2 worlds. That could be very literal. You may get to choose whether you want to be with Abraham, et al, in the heavenly New Jerusalem, or live on Earth, in or around Jerusalem in Judea.

Specifically written by a Jew to Jews, Hebrews 10:34 - 11:40 sheds some light on this. It says, "For ye had compassion of me (Paul) in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that YE (HEBREWS) HAVE IN HEAVEN A BETTER AND AN ENDURING SUBSTANCE. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he (the Redeemer, YHVH of hosts, the first [YHVH king of Israel] and the last [YHVH of hosts, Isa. 44:6]; YHVHshua/Yahwehshua/Yahshua/Y'shua/Yeshua/Joshua/Iesous/Jesu) that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Continuing in Heb. 11, we read, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch (not Jewish) was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"By faith Noah (not Jewish, died 2 years before Abraham was born), being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (type of our Redeemer) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city (Jerusalem) which hath foundations (as in New Jerusalem, Rev. 21:14), whose builder and maker is God.

"Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one (Abraham), and him as good as dead, so many (Israelites) as the stars of the sky (representing the heavenly group) in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore (representing the earthly group) innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they (Israelites) had been mindful of that country (Egypt, i.e., Earth) from whence they came out (and went to the Promised Land), THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE RETURNED (TO EARTH). BUT NOW THEY (THESE ISRAELITES) DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for HE HATH PREPARED FOR THEM (ISRAELITES) A CITY (NEW JERUSALEM).

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. By faith Moses, when he was come to years (40), refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

"By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. By faith the harlot Rahab (not Jewish) perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

"And THESE ALL, HAVING OBTAINED A GOOD REPORT THROUGH FAITH, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: GOD HAVING PROVIDED SOME BETTER THING FOR US, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT." We will all be made perfect together, as one Body of Christ....Shalom and agape

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