Pro and Con 96, Uploaded 5-10-98
From Abraham Forum: Thu, 7 May 1998; Charles Jemeyson wrote:
> >> We need to really look at our doctrine (myself included). Most place the
> >> Book of Revelation to be future when the beginning and end of the book says
> >> "it must take place shortly. The beginning and end of the book also says
> >> "the time is near." (Compare Rev 1:1 with 22:6; also Rev 1:3 with 22:10.
> >> Also look up that word "shortly." Notice what it says about the Greek word
> >> for "shortly" when preceded by the preposition "en.")
> >> Your servant in Yeshua,
> >> Charles Jemeyson
> >***From Marilyn: I looked up shortly as you advised. The Greek means in
> >haste, quickly. All of the book of Revelation is written as if the
> >Rapture is "at hand." As you noticed, it has "at hand" in both the first
> >and last chapters. Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He
> >comes quickly at the Rapture of the church (Rev. 2:5). Therefore, we are
> >now at that point where the Rapture is truly "at hand." This book is
> >specially written for us upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Charles Jemeyson wrote:
> You've got the right Greek work, but came up with the wrong answer. The book
> of Revelation, as I understand it, is speaking of 70 AD, not some 2000 or 2500 years
> later. It is speaking of a time which would "shortly" take place and the
> "time was near" to that group in the first century.
***From Marilyn: The Bible was of course written for all mankind, but the things recorded of Israel before Paul wrote I Cor. 10:11 are especially for us at the end of the ages. Paul said, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come." Much more is Revelation for those living at the end of the ages.
Everything from Rev. 4:1 is "hereafter" the Pre-Trib Rapture. Rev. 8:8's,"a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood" did not happen in 70 AD and has not happened yet.
This is a piece of an asteroid that hits the Mediterranean Sea at noon the first day of the Millennium. Zeph. 2:4,5 says, "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast...the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant." Are there inhabitants in Gaza today? Then this has not happened yet. It will happen on the Day of God's Wrath.
Job 20:23 says, "When he (the False Prophet) is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating." This is when "there fell a great star (aster, star, asteroid or meteorite) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp (Rev. 8:10). This is a larger piece of the asteroid. It will destroy Babylon. Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall BE FOUND NO MORE AT ALL." Does Babylon on the Euphrates exist today? Yes. Saddam Hussein rebuilt it. Therefore this has not happened yet, either. It too will happen on the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.
Joel 2:1,2 speaks of that day: "BLOW ye the trumpet (it is the Feast of Trumpets) in Zion (Gog's army is attacking Israel that day, Ezek 38), and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness...a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it."
Note: Gog seems to be the demon king, Amos 7:1, LXX, says, "Thus has the Lord God shewed me; and, behold, a swarm of locusts (i.e., demons)...and , behold, one caterpillar, king Gog." Rev. 9:11, KJV, says, "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon (destroyer)."
This is one day unlike any other. It is when the seven trumpet judgments (Rev. 8:1f) and the seven "vials full of the wrath of God" (Rev. 15:7) are poured out on Earth." Gog's army is stopped, and Babylon is annihilated. The Lord will fight for Israel that day. This has not happened yet.
The Day of the Lord cannot come until after Elijah prophesies 1260 days. Mal. 4:5 says, "I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful DAY OF THE LORD." Elijah has not yet appeared. Therefore the Day of the Lord has not yet come.
In Revelation, Jesus stood as if on the pinnacle of the Rapture and looked both backward and forward to describe events. He told John to "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Rapture), and the things which are (things at the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter ("hereafter" the Rapture, the "Come up hither" of Rev. 4:1).
Incoming Email I read in one of the last Pro & Cons someone say the time of the rapture might be 9am because the Holy Spirit came on the first Church on 9am. Not so - Peter was preaching 9am only after the Holy Spirit was poured out possibly hours before. Thousands came to the Lord that day, and you dont gather 3000 people in minutes. Some Theologians think it needed 6 -12 hours to gather a crowd like that. My guess is that the Holy Spirit also fell on them on Midnight.
Something else I found before I read on it on your web is That GOD always work in PATTERNS. Note in NUM.3.41 that the Levites was bought by GOD when the firstborn sons did not die in Egipt. Also the 30 /50 year rule for the Priesthood we find there. Fact is that GOD worked through MOSES right up to the end of the 40 Year testing. Even though the Priests might have qualified in the 30/50 rule earlier. God demonstrated HIMSELF that HE transfered the ministry to the Priests when HE used THEM to open the river to take JERICHO when their feet touched the water.
When the Priesthood was transfered to the Church on the day of Pentecost, They had to wait for the 30/50 rule but also the 40 years testing. In 60 AD the 30 year rule were fulfilled and they had to wait for the 40 year test time to pass. GOD confirmed when HE took down the Temple BRICK by BRICK (They carried the bricks away to regain the melted gold) I noted that the CHURCH-PRIESTS was ready after 30 years but Israel still handled sacrifices for 10 years that the CHURCH had to wait for the 40 years to pass.
We also know that the service must go back to Israel and the 40 year test time passed in 1987/8. Only the 30 year restriction on the priests only started to run in 1967 when the Templemount was regained. The 10 years since 1987/8 that the Church are stil the legal Priesthood, was a "pay back" for the 10 years Israel owed the Church for the years 60 - 70AD. 1 COR. 3:9 -23 calls the Church not only the Temple but confirms 1 PET 2:5 where we are pictured as LIVING BRICKS in GOD's Building. The 40 years for Israel passed plus the 10 the owed to the church The 30 Years for the Priesthood they fulfilled too Only thing left is for GOD to confirm the transfer back to the Priesthood of Israel openly as in the past, and I think it will be the "BREAKING DOWN OF THE OLD TEMPLE AND TAKING AWAY OF THE LIVING BRICKS WITH THE GOLD MELTED IN THEM (i.e. Wise Virgins ?)
Blessings fron South Africa
My reply Thanks for your insight. I think 9:00 in the morning is too late too for Acts 2:6 says, "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. After that, Peter said that it was the third hour of the day (9:00 AM). They did not have TV or radio to spread the news in a hurry. Surely it took quite awhile for this news to be "noised abroad" and for that many people assemble together....
Note: I think both the 30 years and the 40 years started to be counted when Israel grew leaves in 1967. 1967 + 30 = 1997, when the Levites became eligible to serve in the temple. 1967 + 40 = 2007, when the Feast of Trumpets is the Day of God's Wrath. On that day "every wall shall fall" (Ezek. 38:20) as Jericho's did.
Incoming Email I find myself constantly looking to May.....I cannot even begin to comprehend being in the arms of Jesus in only days away....
It's like my logic is trying to hold my emotions in check. I'm almost afraid to be too excited. What if God decides that the appointed time is not May 30? Although I love the life that God has blessed me with, along with my wife and children....the thought of being in paradise finds me more than willing!!!!
It's kind of funny what I have been thinking about will happen if the Rapture does indeed happen. Just think.....Bill Clinton will probably continue to be the President. Even after his term expires. I know that would be UnConstitutional....but he would probably find a way. Maybe through Martial Law. The financial markets would be devestated with the disappearance of Millions of people. Depression would follow. Anarchy would probably begin to reign....until the Anti-Christ brings order via the UN.....
Is my imagination going to the extreme ? Or does this sound plausible? Is my attempt to be rational about the Rapture reasonable ? Or simply off base ?
All I know is that I want to be with Christ.....sooner would be much better than later. I pray that your calculations are correct. If they are.....I guess I will see you in May.
See you in glory
My reply > What if God decides that the appointed time is not May 30?" (or 31st)
We wait patiently until it happens. With world conditions shaping up the way they are, it can't be far off.
> does this sound plausible? Is my
> attempt to be rational about the Rapture reasonable ? Or simply off base ?
Yes, it's plausible and reasonable.
What fun it will be in that assembly in Heaven to meet those we have corresponded with.
Incoming Email I love your website. The information is biblically sound, and refreshing. I agree that God would not have us in the dark about His return. And even if the predictions do not occur, does that mean we give up? God forbid. It should make us more eager to find His truth. (The passage concerning the master who started to beat his servants, and lived drunkenly comes to mind.) I think we all need to ask the Lord to wash our robes, while we still have the chance. On to the order at hand, I was reading John, and these verses spoke to me.
John Chapter 2
1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there,
2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My time has not yet come."
5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.
8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so,
9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside
10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
A few things I picked up.
The wedding was on the third day (beginning of millenium)
Jesus and His disciples were invited (of course, who else)
There was no more wine (Time for resurrection of the saints)
There were six vesels for water (number of man)
The jars were for ceremonial washing (Filled with the Holy Spirit[Wine]
to wash us from our sins. The resurrection saints were filled to the brim)
He commanded the servants to take the wine to the master of the banquet
(The resurrection saints were obedient in taking the word to the world)
Choice wine first, best for last (???? - Pre-trib, trib-saints)..(???? -
The cheap wine was served last for monetary reasons. The Holy Spirit[Wine] was made[Paid for] by Jesus[Crucifixion], and is offered without hesitation to those who ask - this would seem out of context)
What do you feel about this? Maybe I have rapture fever..I could be looking to deep. All I know is that I love the Lord, and have done Him wrong too many times, and quenched the Holy Spirit from my life. I pray he can forgive me...pray for me if you have a chance.
My reply Thanks for the nice things you said.
The wedding in Galilee (circle, i.e, the sphere of Heaven) is a picture of the Marriage of the Lamb. Jesus will then again drink wine with his disciples. The water of the Holy Spirit will have become the best wine for us too.
I prayed, but don't worry, read I John 1:9. If we confess our known sins, he is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
> I think we all need to ask the Lord to wash our robes, while we still have the chance.
Amen....Things during the rule of the Beast and False Prophet are going to be so bad, I hope none of us have to go through it.
(Please, people, get ready. The date of his return doesn't matter. Get right with the Lord as fast as you can. We need a love relationship with the Bridegroom.)
Incoming Email I've been reading the 2007 book. Find it fasinating in that I've been a Christian for 30 yrs. or so and have intentionally stayed away from Revelations due to fear, inability to understand, and maybe a thousand other reasons. Your book definitely uncovers new ideas, I will share this with my well studied Baptist pastor as I think he'll be very interested.
Incoming Email I received the books, thanks for sending them, I certainly am enjoying and learning some very indepth knowledge. Thank you for all your faithfulness and time you have spent on your email and books. See you with the Lord
Incoming Email Why are you charging for your literature if you are only going to be here for another 6 weeks? Just curious.
My reply Can't make ends meet otherwise. Just when we think we can't make it, a little check comes in, and we say, "Thank you Lord."
Incoming Email A very interesting article by F.M. Riley, a pastor in New Mexico regarding the imminent return of the Lord, in this year - 1998. The following is just a portion of the whole article. If you have the time, I've included the web address at the bottom of this email. I've also attached the article as a Netscape text file.
The reasons for my pursuit is to alay the "spirit of fear" that is associated with the attachment of the parable of the ten virgins to the body of Christ.
You are a blessing to the body of Christ and I thank you for interacting with us!
My reply Thanks for the file.
I think the parable of the ten virgins has to do with the Body of Christ. Only the wise went with the Bridegroom, just as Eve was taken out of the side of the body of Adam.
Pastor Riley said, "It should also be obvious that the rapture cannot occur on the day of Pentecost this year as some believe and teach. Keep in mind that as a nation Israel is fifty years old on May 14, 1998, but Pentecost does not occur until May 31st. Check it out for yourself. Pentecost is too late for the rapture. So those of God's people who are seriously 'looking for that blessed hope,' Titus 2:13, can narrow the 'time frame' a little more.'
Pastor Riley forgot something, that the Jubilee year is one year long, not one day long. He counted it as a Jubilee day.
Incoming Email Hello, please visit the url:
My reply I did, and copied this:
> 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
> 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night,
> nor of darkness." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-5)
> Notice in verse 4 that we are told that the day will now overtake you (Christians) like a thief.
Do you really believe what this says? Will that day overtake the brethren like a thief? Brethren means believers. What does the word "not" mean? Alan Yusko seems to have substituted the word "now" in his head for the word "not."
Look at Rev. 3:3, Jesus said, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."
What will we know if we do watch? Turn it around. It would then say that If therefore thou shall watch, I will not come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus will come as a thief at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, shortly before Armageddon, not at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Rev. 16:15,16 says, "Behold, I come as a thief, Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."
Incoming Email I've been browsing your site and have learned a lot! Thanks for your efforts. However, I have a question for you. Your calculations involve a 40-year span for a generation, based upon the 40 years the Jews wandered before entering the Promised Land. I have read other definitions of a Biblical generation (38.5 years, 50 years, 70 years and 80 years). I'm not sure where these come from. Is the definition of a generation a debatable point among Biblical scholars? If so, why have you chosen 40 years as the correct one? Thanks in advance for you help!
My reply The Israelites were to wander in the wilderness forty years until the older generation died.
Nu. 14:33,34 says, "And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years."
Num 33:38 says that Aaron died on Mt Hor "in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt." It was not long after that they went into the Promised Land.
The number 40 means testing and probabion and fits perfectly, as Jesus was tested 40 days, etc.
Seventy or eighty years is speaking of the lifespan, not a generation. Webster's gives a generation as 33 years, but the Bible indicates 40.
I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples (examples, types): and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come."
I've been keeping up with your updates. I loved it when you started using the quarter months in your count down. It's starting to get very exciting!
I have a question about a reply you gave in the pro-con from 4-18 pertaining to the feasts and the parallels to end times. You talked about how the spirit left the temple in 66AD and how that may foreshadow the spirit leaving the earth at the Rapture. I've also read that those who are left behind and see the rapture will be given a "double portion" of the holy spirit and will trust in the Lord. I know that the spirit will no longer restrain the forces of evil after the Rapture (the salt will be gone and the leaven will do it's work), but will the spirit actually leave the earth completely? I'm confused as to where you stand here.
Also, I recently told my girlfriend Susan about the coming rapture. She already knew that I was into your books, but I never told her about the date because I thought it would upset her. When I told her though she was very excited, a little confused though. After I explained things she seemed very at peace with it. In fact she just told me about a dream she had where her and I were watching on May 30th when suddenly we were surrounded by white light and she remembered thinking "he's right!"
I thought it was cool that she had the dream. Her family (mother's side) has great faith. I'm told that her grandmother (who passed away 2 years ago) often had visions of beautiful fields covered with flowers, and on more than one occasion, began speaking in tounges. Susan herself was contacted by a friend of her grandmother (another woman of great faith) who said that she had recieved a message for Susan that came from Jesus. Basically, it said to let go of her worries about life and let him guide her. The whole family has so much love in it that it is no wonder why they are so close with God. Her father is an unbeliver though which makes for some very awkward situations. We pray for him often. Her parents have been in England since January and will be until the end of May. When we went to visit them I took Revelation 2000 and left it there in the hopes that her father may pick it up, see the date and WAKE UP!!
I'm sorry about the length of this. I just felt like I should share this with you. Thanks for all of your work and your love. Peace be upon you
I've included a link to your page in my signature file in the hope that some will see it and get the message. So far 3 people have checked it out. That's 3 more than before!
My reply Thanks for sharing.
> will the spirit actually leave the earth completely? I'm confused as
> to where you stand here.
No. He holds everything together, and if he took away the breathe of life, everything would die. God cannot be contained by the whole universe. In him we live, and move, and have our being. Though the Spirit of God takes the Bride of Christ to Heaven, he is still operative on Earth. We are just used to thinking in terms of time and space. He is not limited by either.
I can't be sure of the double portion of the Holy Spirit on those who see the Rapture, but Elisha got a double portion because he saw Elijah taken up.
(Re: link in signature file) That was nice and thoughtful. Thanks so much.
Incoming Email I have to share with you something that has happened that is unexplainable to me, but brings great joy. I downloaded a new version of Netscape on a computer in my office. I set it up so there are two accounts, a default user and a second account with my name and email address. I download software and set up this type of thing freqently in my job. When I finished and checked back to make sure it was done correctly, the default user account was there and the second account should have had my name but didn't. It had the name of "Pretrib". At first I thought I must be nuts, but when I re-checked the setup, the information I had entered was still there and so was "Pretrib". I can't explain it from an earthly view. I'm hoping it means, God has found me worthy and Jesus finds me ready.
I have read all of your books and truly appreciate your diligent study and hard work. Thanks and glory to God for creating you and showing you this path.
My reply I appreciate this. It is like some things I type coming out in caps when I do not do it. Someone else told me her old computer would type LORD or Lord correctly, when she was typing Scripture, without her doing it. Her new one won't do it. Strange things happen. Makes you wonder, huh?
Incoming Email What are your feelings regarding the Jews with the end time prophecies? I believe that the covenant with Abraham is still in effect with the Jews - in SPITE of their stubborness as a people. I have friends that believe that the God's covenant with the Jews has been replaced with a covenant with Gentiles. I don't see any evidence in scripture. As a matter of fact Paul seems to say, I believe in Romans, that the Jews have NOT been abandoned by God. Is that a reasonable assessment?
My reply I agree with you. God does not go back on his promises. Everything he promised the Israelites will come true for the Israelites--literally.
They have not been replaced. We have been grafted in. All the promises made to the church will take place for the church, which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. After we are taken to Heaven, God will again deal mainly with the Jews. They are to be chastised 7 years, and then the world will be ruled from Jerusalem for the rest of the Millennium.
However, just as both Jews and Gentiles have a chance to be caught up to Heaven in the Rapture before the Tribulion begins, both Jews (Lev. 26:28) and Gentiles (Rev. 3;19) will be chastised during the 7 years if they are left behind.
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