Pro and Con 963

Posted 10-27-02

Incoming email

Some interesting pics taken by Jerry Golden of the bulge on the southern part of the Western wall and also the latest picture of the "stain".. Thought you would be interested. Agape, ysic
http://pub28.bravenet.com/forum/fetch.php?id=10043200&dir=2&usernum=2340524032

The Jerry Golden Report

http://thegoldenreport.com/news-report/wallupdate.shtml

WET WALL - The wet spot on the Western Wall has all but dried up. It still can be seen, as it was not water but sap from the plants. Golden...

But the big surprise is the new bulge on the southern part of the Western Wall under what is called Robinsonís Arch. This also is being caused by the Moslemís illegal excavation under the Al Aska Mosque on the Temple Mount. When these old stones get wet they begin to give way under the pressure on and against them....the area behind this new wet spot is also being prepared as a Mosque illegally and without the permission of the Israeli Government....

Just to give you some perspective of the distance from the bulge in the Southern Wall and the one under Robinsonís Arch I took this picture and highlighted the two spots in question. The distance between the two is at least 300 yards.

My reply

Thanks for this URL. I found it too, but certainly would'nt want to miss it. The following pictures and comments will be on upcoming Pro and Con 963. The camera seems to have been sharper than his eyes. The wet spot is still there. Check out Saturday's enlarged wall cam picture.
http://www.aish.com/wallcam/Window_on_the_Wall.asp

For comparison, here is the picture Jerry took before. Compare it with his new one. There could be water dripping from the stone above too.

Excerpts from 5 Doves site

Anonymous (25 Oct 2002) - "Interesting article"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2002/anonymous1025.htm

Can you date the crucifixion of Jesus Christ using astronomy?

Many people have tried. In the December 22, 1993 issue of Nature magazine, Colin Humphreys and W. Waddington reviewed all of the previous attempts and came up with a date of Friday, April 3, 33 AD as a very likely candidate.

The basis for these predictions hangs upon several pieces of information in the New Testament. The crucifixion happened during the 10 years that Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judaea which was between AD 26 - 36 according to independent historical records, particularly the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus. There is no controversy over this piece of information since Pontius Pilate is a known historical figure mentioned by name.

All four of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John agree that the crucifixion happened a few hours before the beginning of the Jewish sabbath which would be nightfall on a Friday, and within a day of Passover which is celebrated at the time of a Full Moon.

The Last Supper was a Passover meal which would have happened on the evening at the start of the festival calendar 15 Nisan. The Crucifixion occurred later that day. This, however, disagrees with John's date of 14 Nisan and those of the other gospels. So, here is where a bit of controversy begins to enter the story.

Humphreys and Waddington then assumed that both 14 and 15 Nisan are possible dates, and then consulted predictions of the lunar motion to determine for which dates between AD 26 - 36, either 14 or 15 Nisan fell on a Friday. These are the only dates possible for the Crucifixion as set by the Biblical evidence. The result is a set of 5 possible dates:

14 Nisan............ Friday 11 April AD 27
.............................Friday 7 April AD 30
............................Friday 3 April AD 33
15 Nisan............ Friday 11 April AD 27
.............................Friday 23 April AD 34

What now begins is a process of elimination, which means that someone has to make a choice, and therefore introduce their own opinion.

AD 27 is too early because Luke carefully states that John the Baptist began his ministry the 15 year during the rein of Tiberius Caesar and had baptised Jesus. This would have happened in autumn of AD 28-29 or Spring 29-30. Also most scholars believe that Pilate had been procurator 'for some time' before the Crucifixion....

There are now only two plausible dates: Friday, 7 April AD 30, and 3 April AD 33. John's gospel records that three Passovers occurred during his ministry which began AD 28. This would eliminate April 7, 30 AD, leaving only 3 April AD 33 as a surviving possiblility. These two dates are exactly those on which Biblical scholars seem clustered as the two favored dates.

My reply

> > The crucifixion happened during the 10 years that Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judaea which was between AD 26 - 36

And Jesus was baptized in 26 AD.

> > All four of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John agree that the crucifixion happened a few hours before the beginning of the Jewish sabbath which would be nightfall on a Friday, and within a day of Passover which is celebrated at the time of a Full Moon.

The Sabbath he is talking about is Saturday with the Passover on Friday, which is correct. However, the Crucifixion was on Thursday, the Eve of Passover, the Preparation of the Passover.

The Crucifixion was not on the Feast day. John 18:28 says, "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the HALL OF JUDGMENT (the Sanhedrin met only on Thursday): and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." The Passover (Nisan 14) was Friday, but the Crucifixion was on Thursday (Nisan 13), the day the Sanhedrin met.

John 19:14-16 is very clear. The Crucifixion was on Nisan 13, the Eve of Passover, the Preparation for the Passover. It says, "IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified."

When we have such a clear statement in Scripture, how people can make Wednesday or Friday Crucifixion Day is beyond me. The Preparation of the Passover was Thursday (Nisan 13). The Passover was Friday (Nisan 14). The Feast of Unleavened Bread was Saturday (Nisan 15). The Resurrection was Sunday (Nisan 16).

Josephus (Ant. III.X. 5) shows that the three feasts fall on successive days, Nisan 14, 15 and 16. He said, "...Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, ON THE FOURTEENTH DAY of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries...THE PASSOVER....THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD succeeds that of the PASSOVER, and falls ON THE FIFTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH, and continues seven says...But ON THE...SECOND DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, WHICH IS THE SIXTEENTH day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day (Feast of FIRSTFRUITS) they do not touch them." (This also shows that Pentecost is the 50th day counted from Nisan 16, which is the day after Nisan 15. All 3 feasts are Sabbaths.)

Mark 14:12 says that it was "the first (prote, before, prior) day of unleavened bread, WHEN THEY KILLED THE PASSOVER." That was on Nisan 13, in the evening (3-6 PM, between the evenings) of the Eve of Passover. They had to have the lamb roasted and eaten between 6 PM and midnight on Nisan 14.

Jesus was "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40). Those were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day), and Sunday (night). Luke 24:7 says, on "the "third day rise again." Those days were Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

The "Tractate Sanhedrin" in the Babylonian Talmud even says, "ON THE EVE OF PASSOVER YESHU WAS HANGED" (Sanhedrin 43a GBT VII. p. 181; SBT pg. 281).

The Last Supper was after the 6 PM that started Thursday, Nisan 13, the Eve of Passover, the day of the Crucifixion.

> > The Last Supper was a Passover meal which would have happened on the evening at the start of the festival calendar 15 Nisan. The Crucifixion occurred later that day. This, however, disagrees with John's date of 14 Nisan and those of the other gospels. So, here is where a bit of controversy begins to enter the story.

All 4 gospels agree with each other.

> > Humphreys and Waddington then assumed that both 14 and 15 Nisan are possible dates, and then consulted predictions of the lunar motion to determine for which dates between AD 26 - 36, either 14 or 15 Nisan fell on a Friday. These are the only dates possible for the Crucifixion as set by the Biblical evidence. The result is a set of 5 possible dates:
14 Nisan............ Friday 11 April AD 27
.............................Friday 7 April AD 30
............................Friday 3 April AD 33
15 Nisan............ Friday 11 April AD 27
.............................Friday 23 April AD 34

Since" Friday 7 April AD 30" was Nisan 14, Thursday, Nisan 13, the Preparation of the Passover, was the Crucifixion.

> > AD 27 is too early because Luke carefully states that John the Baptist began his ministry the 15 year during the rein of Tiberius Caesar and had baptised Jesus. This would have happened in autumn of AD 28-29 or Spring 29-30. Also most scholars believe that Pilate had been procurator 'for some time' before the Crucifixion....

Jesus was baptized in 26 AD, the 15th year of Tiberius' rule. Tiberius was made Co-Rex in 12 AD, and was the sole ruler over Palestine from that time, Augustus busying himself with other parts of his empire. Tiberius became Sol-Rex when Augustus died in 14 AD.

> > There are now only two plausible dates: Friday, 7 April AD 30, and 3 April AD 33. John's gospel records that three Passovers occurred during his ministry which began AD 28. This would eliminate April 7, 30 AD, leaving only 3 April AD 33 as a surviving possiblility.

The Baptism was in 26 AD. The Crucifixion was Nisan 13, 3790, which fell on April 6, 30 AD.

This ties in with April 6, 2008, when I think Christ will return at the Second Advent.

From 5 Doves site

Jacque Driskell (25 Oct 2002)
"The Stones of Jerusalem are Crying out"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2002/jacqued1025-1.htm

"The inscription, in the Aramaic language, appears on an empty ossuary, or limestone burial box for bones. It reads: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."...

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door."

What is "the most important find in the history of New Testament archaeology"?

Christianity Today 10-21-02
Stunning New Evidence that Jesus Lived
Scholars link first-century bone box to James, brother of Jesus.
By Gordon Govier | posted 10/21/2002
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/141/11.0.html

...It could be, probably, the most significant archaeological discovery of this generation." Shanks calls it "the most important find in the history of New Testament archaeology."...

Did the greatest attention-getting sign in the sky point us to the year that the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth?

NASA EYES LASERS TO DIVERT ASTEROIDS pt 1, 10-19-02
http://www.jvim.com/cgi-bin/update.cgi

UPI reports: "...the spectacular crash of the Shoemaker-Levy comet into the planet Jupiter in 1993 and a razor-thin miss between an asteroid and Earth only last year have sharpened attention on work NASA has been doing to prevent impacts and their devastating results....

It was a comet that did hit -- actually a string of comet fragments -- that REALLY CAUGHT THE WORLD'S ATTENTION. When comet Shoemaker-Levy struck about 10 years ago, scientists had a ring-side seat as IT TORE PLANET-SIZE HOLES IN THE GOLDEN SURFACE OF JUPITER in a series of impacts -- IMPACTS BIG ENOUGH TO DESTROY EARTH.

'I THINK IT MADE AN IMPRESSION,' Jonathan Campbell, a NASA researcher at Marshall Space Flight Center, told United Press International.

Campbell, whose work at NASA is part of Marshall's new National Space Science and Technology Center, is studying the use of lasers to shift the orbit of such dangerous asteroids. Carlos Roithmayr, a scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va., also is looking at lasers. Both scientists have presented their projects to attendees at the World Space Congress.
---
Note: It looks like 1993 started the 7 good and 7 bad years, as when Joseph was in Egypt. (1993 + 14 = 2007)
---
AMOS GILAD: SADDAM,S FALL WILL LEAD TO ARAFAT'S AS WELL 10-17-02
http://www.jvim.com/cgi-bin/update.cgi

The Jerusalem Post reports: "If Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein is driven from power it is likely to bring about the fall of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat as well, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Maj.-Gen. Amos Gilad said Wednesday....

Saddam is a strong backer of the Palestinian cause, and 'is a symbol to tyrants like Yasser Arafat and others,' Gilad told a gathering of journalists and diplomats in Jerusalem. 'If [Saddam] will collapse, it will create an earthquake in this area.' Saddam's fall would accelerate a deterioration in support for Arafat even among his closest allies, Gilad said.

From 5 Doves site

RE: Jubilee (23 Oct 2002) "Are we in Second Month, Seventh or Eight Month?"

My reply

< < I have noticed that many on this list are saying that 17th of Cheshvan is the day that Noah entered the ark and that the flood came . They are saying this believing that Heshvan is the second month as quoted from: Genesis 7:11: "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

> > According to this site on the Jewish calendar the second month is actually Iyar (April/May)Cheshvan is actually the eighth month.

Here is the way I understand it. As Dr. Charles L. Fineberg said when he was dean of Talbot Theological Seminary at BIOLA, "The Bible is consistent." The calendar in Noah's day can be extrapolated back to the first day this kosmos (orderly arrangement of things) started to operate as it does today. Therefore, Tishri 1 was the day God rested from all that he had created new and made of existing things he had created previously.

When the flood took place, there was no Sacred Calendar yet, only the Civil Calendar that was kept from the beginning in Adam's day. The first month was Tishri, the first day of which God rested from all that he created and made. That was in the autumn. The weather was comfortable, even when Adam and Eve were not wearing clothing.

Abraham, from whom the Israelites were descended, was born 2 years after Noah died. The Sacred Calendar started later at the Exodus. In Exodus 12:2, the Lord told Moses, "This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you."

That is when Nisan became the 1st month of the Sacred Calendar. Today, the Jews keep both the civil and sacred calendars, as the US keeps both the civil and fiscal years. Agape

Incoming email, Re: raptures

Please explain the difference between a rapture and a resurrection? I believe there is a pretrib rapture and a resurrection within a short time of each other but as to a prewrath rapture I see only the martyrs resurrected and Christians still alive during that time going into the millennium. Am I wrong? If as you say all people who are converted during the tribulation are taken to heaven before the millennium, who goes into the millennium?

My reply

I Thess. 4:13-17 shows us that at the catching up (the Rapture), there will be both resurrection of the dead in Christ and the catching up of believers who have not yet died.

1Th 4:13-17 says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (believers), concerning them which are asleep (the dead in Christ), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (the saints that have died) will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep (asleep in Jesus). For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout (saying 'Come up hither,' Rev. 4:1), with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Christ's voice is like a trumpet, Rev. 1:10; 4:1): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (i.e., get their resurrection bodies): Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Lit. Gr: harpgesometha, shall be caught away, from harpazo; Lat: rapiemir; Eng., raptured) together with them (the dead in Christ that have just received their resurrection bodies) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

There are 2 Resurrection/Raptures coming up, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath. The 1st is before the 1st seal is opened on the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth. The 2nd is before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth. The saints that are "accounted worthy to ESCAPE (ekpheugo, to flee out:,escape) all these things that shall come to pass (in the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man" (in Heaven) (Lu. 21:36).

The 24 elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel, whose names are on the gates of New Jerusalem, and the 12 apostles, whose names are on the foundations. John is one of the 24 elders. He will return with Christ, get his resurrection body, and rise to meet Christ in the clouds. The other 23 elders will do the same. When John is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, so are the other elders. In Rev. 4:4, we see the 24 elders, including John, sitting on 24 thrones. They are all wearing crowns.

We will be caught up when John gets his resurrection body and is caught up to Heaven. That is before the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth is given to Christ (Rev. 5:7). In John 17:22, 23, Christ said, "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one (Body of Christ); and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The worthy Old Testament saints will be part of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Heb 11:40 says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

All the worthy saints that are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (i.e., they are not all from Israel)." They have been caught up when the 23 Israelite elders were caught up with John. So all saints that are accounted worthy are in Heaven when Jesus is given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth. They are still there when the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6.

We see the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude that no man can number in Heaven in Rev. 7. They have come out of the Great Tribulation, the latter half of the Tribulation that is to be shortened (Mt. 24:22,23). They are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." They are all believers, worthy or not, and are caught up to Heaven just before the 7th seal is broken. Just as at the 1st Rapture, this group is made up of both the living and the ones who have died. Some of this group will be martyred, not all.

They will be in Heaven before the 7 trumpet judgments hit unbelievers on Earth at noon on the Day of God that is the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

Rev 11:17,18 says, "We (all saints in Heaven) give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on this 1st day of his kingdom), and wast (at the First Advent), and art to come (at the Second Advent, which is still 7 months after the 2nd Rapture, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (it is Coronation Day in Heaven, the 1st day of Christ's kingdom). And the nations were angry (On Earth, Gog's army is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come (the 7 trumpet judgments), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give REWARD (in Heaven) unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (i.e., all saints in Heaven); AND shouldest destroy (with the 7 trumpet judgments) them which destroy the earth."

Not all unbelievers will die, but the dead will lay around the Earth. The asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth, causing a worldwide earthquake that will shake down every wall (Eze. 38:20).

Rev. 16:18,19 says, "there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Seven months later, Christ will return in glory, which is not possible on the day of thick darkness (Joel 1:15; 2:1-3). He will conduct the Judgment of the Nations (Mt. 25:32). Of these people, the ones that have helped the Jews will live on into the Millennium.

On the Day of God's Wrath, Israel will be born in a day (Isa. 66:8). All those survivors will live on into the Millennium on Earth.

Of the group of believers in Heaven, some, like Abel, Enoch, Noah (not Jewish like the rest of the list), Abraham and Sarah, Issac, Joseph, Moses and Jacob, will choose to live in Heaven. Others, like David and Daniel, may choose to live on Earth. Daniel was told that he would stand in his lot on the 1335th day in Dan. 12:13. The Jews are promised the Earth.

Heb 11:15 16 says, "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out (Earth), they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

The Israelis that are like the stars of Heaven will live in Heaven. Those that are like the sand of the Sea will live on Earth. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Planet X -- The Blessed Hope & Prophecy News Forum

If you will scroll down on this article to the Planet X explanation this is what I was referring to in a recent Email to you. (Incidentally this is from the new server being used by the forum. They will be leaving the other server Bravenet shortly) This Planet X is supposedly 3 times the size of Earth. and will bypass us in the near future. Its gravitational pull as it goes by is to wreak havoc upon our planet. Apparently we are not being informed by our government. Article begins with....A tenth planet was discovered........etc. Could this be the start of the tribulation? Blessings to you and Ed. Ysic
http://www.voy.com/112207/44.html

My reply

The Day of Destruction is at the end of the shortened Tribulation. At the beginning of the Tribulation, the rider of the white horse comes on the scene (Rev. 6) as a prince of peace. He won't ride the red horse symbolizing war until about another year goes by. Then he will take peace from the Earth.

> > John DiNardo wrote:...
> > This tenth planet is 4 to 5 times the size of earth, and 100 times as dense, meaning that it has a large gravitational pull. Each 3,600 years as it comes by the earth, it does not collide with earth as it passes by, but the intense gravitational pull DOES AFFECT the earth tremendously. It has done so in the past, the last time approximately 1600BC. > > Scientists forecast that as much as 70% of the earthís population will not survive the moment of the passing of this planet; another 20% will starve to death in the aftermath, and only about 10% of the population will survive.

Does history show us that such a thing happened in BC 1600, ten years before Moses was born? I don't think so. The Israelites were multiplying fast in Egypt. That's why Pharaoh wanted the male babies killed when Moses was born.

> > The gravitational pull of this tenth planet, on its way toward us right now, is already beginning to show its effects on our entire solar system.

If a planet in our solar system was on its way toward us right now, it would be visible with our huge telescopes. It isn't. We don't even know much about Pluto, because we can't see it clearly.

> > When Planet X crosses between the earth and the sun,

No outer planet "crosses between the earth and the sun." Only Mercury and Venus do, because they are closer to the Sun than Earth.

If there was a planet beyond Pluto in our solar system, it would orbit the Sun outside of the orbits of our 9 planets. The orbits of all planets are essentially concentric rings around the Sun. Pluto's orbit is irregular enough that it does cross inside Neptune's orbit, as it is doing now, but it doesn't cross the orbits of Uranus, Saturn, Jupiter or Mars, let alone Earth's orbit.

> > the earthís surface plates (the land masses) will be shifted; the earth may actually stop its rotation for 3 days while it is in the grip of this massive planet as it speeds past the earth

Do you think Earth can stop its rotation for 3 days and not drop like a stone in space? It can slow down or speed up, but I don't think it can stop for 3 days.

I don't believe there is a Planet X heading our way. What will cause great destruction seems to be a binary asteroid (Rev. 8:8,10). After all, it only takes a stone that is about .7 of a mile in diameter to break the Earth to smithereens.

The coming day of Jacob's trouble is like no other. None is like it. Dan 12:1 speaks of a time LIKE NO OTHER since there was a nation. "And at that time (when the False Prophet shall come to his end, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Agape

Her reply

Thank you so much for your response. I"m sorry to have taken up your valuable time in responding to this "fallacy". As always, you are a true friend who has given me the facts through sound reasoning. and God"s word.. May He bless you continously until He calls us home. My prayers are with you and Ed and his upcoming surgery. Much love to you both. ....Ysic

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